Do you pirate books and why?

[BearMountainBooks]

Well, there's simply no point in an author saying, "If you don't buy it, don't read it." Even if an author feels that way, they gain nothing by saying it. People who are going to download are going to do it anyway and making a reader angry doesn't serve much of a purpose.

I do think that readers don't realize how much torrent and free copies threaten an author (whether the threat is REAL or not, the FEAR is.) It may be an unreasonable fear, but it is still a fear--this system could take away my means to make a living.

A lot of authors live pretty close to the edge--and I mean both indies and trad published. So there can be a feeling that, "Every book counts." In some cases it does. If that publisher is sitting there checking stats and your series doesn't make it...

Just in the last year my cozy group has discussed 4 authors who lost their contracts. The readers complained bitterly about the series going away. It does happen. Did the darknet contribute to this problem? Probably not a lot. Did used books? ABSOLUTELY. Every single one of us on that thread has bought used books and some of the ladies take pride in never buying new.

At least three of the authors went on to create new series (some readers liked the new series better, some won't read it, and some like it less.) At least one author did not (yet) either get a new contract or at least has not produced a new book. That author wrote to one of the cozy fans and explained his time was better spent on his day job. This is an author who received a lot of air time from his favorite fan or two on our group. So that word of mouth thing might have helped a few sales, but apparently not enough sales.

Were these author all affected by the darknet? No. Will the darknet be a contributor to authors having to make this kind of decision (Can I continue writing)? Yes. More and more in the near future.

I'm not saying this to change anyone's habits or rationale. But I did write to one author long ago, before darknet. She had stopped writing her series because she had a 3 book contract. When it was up for renewal, she had opportunity to continue. But there wasn't a lot of money in it and with her life where it was, she opted to focus on other things.

So these things do matter (darknet and used books and the fact that authors don't get a large share of the pot most of the time.) Is it your problem? Only if it happens to be an author you love. And there are enough authors writing that you can always go find something else to read.

[ProfCrash]

Originally Posted by Dallista

The problem is that so far, I've seen no indication that the books will ever made available to me on the amazon US website, i.e. the only website I can legally buy these e-books. Amazon have proven I can read their newly released SW novels within a few minutes past midnight on release day. We're now eight months past release of those older novels. Wait? I think they've had more than enough time to solve any issues with geo-restrictions, release in European countries or whatever the problem is.
But yeah, I'll read something else. Like the new novels, which thankfully I can get.

Originally Posted by BWinmill

Then I guess they won't be getting your money.

Back when I had a Kindle, I had to deal with Amazon being unable or unwilling to sell me books so I simply had to do with out. It sucks, but ya know what? I survived the ordeal.

Geo Restrictions are not something created by Amazon so stop blaming Amazon. Amazon can only sell books that they are authorized to sell by contract. If a book has a contract that allows the book to be sold in the US but not Italy there is nothing that Amazon can do about it.

Sony, Barnes and Nobles, Smashword, Baen, name your favorite bookstore cannot sell books that the Publisher does not have a contract to sell.

Amazon and all the other bookstores out there are not the ones who wrote the laws that allow paperbooks to be sold any where in the world because the point of distribution is the store in the US but restrict the sale of e-books and other electronic media based on the computer at your home being to point of distribution. Trust me, all of the bookstores would love for geo restrictions to go away because they want to sell you the e-book.

Geo restrictions are pretty easily circumvented. There are a multitude of threads on this site discussing how to get around them that allow you to buy the book from a US based store without too much hassle.

[vxf]

Originally Posted by HarryT

There would be only one set of circumstances in which I'd consider it ethically justifiable to pirate a book:

1. If no commercial eBook was available.

and:

2. I'd bought the paper book.

In those circumstances, I'd have no qualms about downloading a pirated eBook. However, if a commercial eBook did then become commercially available, I'd buy it.

So I'd have to answer "on occasions". Very rare occasions.

I also answered "on occasions". I go with:
1. if no ebook is available (but I do buy a print version in those cases).
2. if the ebook sucks (formatting/spelling) or if the ebook is DRM protected. If the ebook is protected, I look for an open copy so I can have a backup. Or I strip the DRM, but I hate dealing with that crap, so I look for one online first.
3. rarely, if I have a print version. But I rarely re-read novels, so this applies mostly to textbooks.

[Ninjalawyer]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

Well, there's simply no point in an author saying, "If you don't buy it, don't read it." Even if an author feels that way, they gain nothing by saying it. People who are going to download are going to do it anyway and making a reader angry doesn't serve much of a purpose.

I do think that readers don't realize how much torrent and free copies threaten an author (whether the threat is REAL or not, the FEAR is.) It may be an unreasonable fear, but it is still a fear--this system could take away my means to make a living.

I only quoted the above-chunk, but the whole comment was great. This distills down the issue (from the author rather than publisher) perspective so nicely. Authors that are most vocal about pirates don't necessarily hate pirates because it makes rationale sense, but because it's wrapped up in a bundle of fear an anxiety about writing generally.

[Yapyap]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

Well, there's simply no point in an author saying, "If you don't buy it, don't read it." Even if an author feels that way, they gain nothing by saying it. People who are going to download are going to do it anyway and making a reader angry doesn't serve much of a purpose.re enough authors writing that you can always go find something else to read.

And yet they do.

I really do think that for many midlisters, at least in certain genres, people relying on used books is a much bigger problem than piracy.

I don't have anything to back this up with, but I'm going to guess that midlist romance and cosy mystery authors belong to this group - the majority of their readers (those who can't/won't buy new) are the used book buyers/readers, while fantasy/scifi/YA midlist authors are probably indeed increasingly feeling the effect of piracy.

But of course it's not generally considered acceptable for an author to rant in anger against people buying used books or borrowing from a friend, while it's acceptable to rant against piracy, even if it may not be the actual reason why a particular author's sales are declining.

Is it your problem? Only if it happens to be an author you love.

I guess this is really the crux of the matter in a lot of cases. Honestly, with an author I love... well, I don't have to speak theoretically, because if I'm in a position to buy (can afford / the author&publisher are willing to sell to me) and it's an author I love, I buy their work. In multiple versions, sometimes.

If it's an author I know nothing about... well. We get back to the "unless I'm fairly certain I'm interested, I'd want to try before I buy" thing - and that's if I'm even allowed to buy.

Seriously though, I'm not actually trying to give excuses here (and I know how feeble this sounds), but if I lived in a country where (a) I was allowed to buy most books for a reasonable price, and (b) I had access to a library with books I might want to read, I very likely wouldn't look at darknet at all.

It's a constant struggle between my personal ethics, trying to find the best balance between desire and what I can afford to buy, always weighing each individual decision against the question of "would I buy this specific book if I couldn't get it otherwise? i.e. is this a lost sale for the author or not?" - and yes, much as I hate to admit this, there's also the not-at-all pleasant sense of envy there as well, the sense of "people in rich English-speaking countries can just walk into a used book shop or library and get it legally for free/cheap/without having to jump through hoops, while I'm expected to buy absolutely everything, at a much higher price, if they deign to sell it to me at all".

Yes, it's entitlement, pure and simple. I'm not under any illusions here. At least I can live reasonably easily with my conscience as long as I follow that personal ethical code - and knowing that "borrowing" via darknet has, in fact, led me to buy many more books by those authors.

On the other hand, I've only ever bought used books when they're out of print and a new copy (from a bookshop, as new, not "in new condition" from a used book seller) isn't available to buy.

(And as I've said before, I buy considerably more books than I get by other means - if I can buy an ebook legally for $6-7 without jumping through hoops, I'll likely buy it even if I'm not entirely sure I'll like it. Kobo coupons have had an amazing effect on making an honest person out of me - well, except of course for that pesky illegal DRM removal bit...)

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

Well, there's simply no point in an author saying, "If you don't buy it, don't read it." Even if an author feels that way, they gain nothing by saying it. People who are going to download are going to do it anyway and making a reader angry doesn't serve much of a purpose.

I did a roundup once of authors who specifically said words to the effect of, "if my book's not available in your region or within your price range, read something else." And a cluster more who said "read it at the library or read something else."

It really was *baffling* to see all these struggling authors tell people, "if you're not buying, I don't want you reading my books."

I do think that readers don't realize how much torrent and free copies threaten an author (whether the threat is REAL or not, the FEAR is.) It may be an unreasonable fear, but it is still a fear--this system could take away my means to make a living.

I do get that. But there's only so much I can do to soothe author egos--especially since a lot of the fear is irrational and based on false assumptions.

Just in the last year my cozy group has discussed 4 authors who lost their contracts.... Did the darknet contribute to this problem? Probably not a lot. Did used books? ABSOLUTELY. Every single one of us on that thread has bought used books and some of the ladies take pride in never buying new.

I've seen some authors rail against used books, especially Amazon's system of listing them on the same page with new ones; it's hard to convince oneself to pay $12 for the version that gives a dollar to the author, instead of the $5-including-shipping version that doesn't. Especially for casual entertainment, like a romance or mystery novel, rather than a book intended to be on one's shelf forever.

Tech change, society change... when radio started to happen, singers whose
vocal quality wasn't great but who had terrific stage presence lost out; singers who had great voices and no stage presence could suddenly have a career in music. With ebooks, authors who can churn out 50,000 words in a few months can gather an income-streaming fanbase; authors who write slower and have incredibly accurate and intricate novels are more likely to be shoved aside.

I am sad for the authors who are getting squeezed out, but I'm not going to bemoan the changes as "a death to literature" while ignoring what new genres and styles are now available. And I'm not going to fret over the shift in business models--I can be sympathetic for my friends who are being damaged by the change without believing that the new methods are evil or bad for literature in general.

[spindlegirl]

Originally Posted by Yapyap

I really do think that for many midlisters, at least in certain genres, people relying on used books is a much bigger problem than piracy.

I remember seeing posts on BookCrossing from authors who were worried that book swapping of physical books was going to hurt their sales.

[ProfCrash]

Here is my question: Which is a larger ethical violation: buying a geo restricted book using a VPN blocker or using the darknet to download a book?

Personally I think getting it through the darknet is worse then breaking geographic restrictions. At least that way the author gets paid. In most parts of the world that also means the books cost less.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by spindlegirl

I remember seeing posts on BookCrossing from authors who were worried that book swapping of physical books was going to hurt their sales.

It does hurt sales, and is probably a large part of why series now get cancelled sooner than in the past. You can now find used books from all over the country rather than just a few in your local used bookstore or senior center.

One of the reasons that cheaper ebooks make sense is because of used bookstores. Some books (romance mostly) are not even done in paperback anymore (I believe Avon has a line and several smaller publishers have ebook only lines.) Unless a book breaks out and has enough sales, they don't bother with the paper version. This model will only work long term if 1. dedicated readers find and buy those books and 2. the darknet doesn't replace used books.

One thing that prevents piracy is that for the average kindle user, it takes some work to learn how to do it. Some people in my groups won't even buy a book if it doesn't direct download to a kindle. Even if it is free, they can't be bothered and/or don't want to learn the transfer steps. That said, if a book was priced high enough, I bet they'd go to the trouble to learn.

Ease of use is a key selling point to a lot of non-tech savvy users, but over time, that advantage will be reduced as people get smarter, more willing to shop around and the formats (epub, mobi, etc) merge into one or can be read across multiple devices.

[Joykins]

Since the ease of downloading a book on a torrent is probably only slightly less than the ease of downloading 1,000 books, and some people can be such data hoarders, there are a certain amount of downloads of books that are probably completely worthless in this debate--a book may be downloaded (because it's free), never read (because it's free/comes as part of a large collection), and therefore not represent a lost sale or really anything else for that matter. Unlike listening to a song, reading a novel-length ebook represents a certain investment of time.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by Joykins

Since the ease of downloading a book on a torrent is probably only slightly less than the ease of downloading 1,000 books, and some people can be such data hoarders, there are a certain amount of downloads of books that are probably completely worthless in this debate--a book may be downloaded (because it's free), never read (because it's free/comes as part of a large collection), and therefore not represent a lost sale or really anything else for that matter. Unlike listening to a song, reading a novel-length ebook represents a certain investment of time.

Except for two things that it does represent:

1. support of the darknets and torrent means they continue to exist--and that means some potential loss of income, not necessarily from that type of downloader, but others.

2. As a consumer we have choices. Darknet downloading takes "choice" out of the author's hands. I have no say whether or not I want my books distributed on the darknets. None. I can rail about it, make nasty comments, beg and plead. I have no options, and that sort of thing can harm the arts (any arts--be they music, books, etc.)

[ianw]

Define Pirate?

Read books that are out of print, and only available as "illegal" ebooks.

Never buy and ebook, download them all.

Only buy free ebooks.

Or, take your books, scan them in, and upload them to the internet..

If it's the last, then no...

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

Except for two things that it does represent:

1. support of the darknets and torrent means they continue to exist--and that means some potential loss of income, not necessarily from that type of downloader, but others.

Torrents are going to continue to exist; they have a lot of legitimate uses. Bands and indie film producers use them to distribute files they can't afford to host directly.

Same with "darknets"--unsearchable websites not accessible through standard clickthroughs. A lot of businesses and activist groups use hidden file-exchange sites.

No amount of action against piracy, no matter how well-supported, is going to shut down private filesharing on the internet... and that means there'll always be systems available for illicit filesharing. Saying "torrents cause illegal filesharing" is a lot like saying "unlocked supermarket shelves cause shoplifting." (You haven't said that; some authors try to.)

2. As a consumer we have choices. Darknet downloading takes "choice" out of the author's hands. I have no say whether or not I want my books distributed on the darknets. None. I can rail about it, make nasty comments, beg and plead. I have no options, and that sort of thing can harm the arts (any arts--be they music, books, etc.)

You have no say whether your books are promoted by white supremacist groups to encourage people to join their cause. You have no say whether your books are chopped up to make word collages. You have no say whether your characters are horrifically mocked and parodied into explicit pornography. You have no say whether your text is quoted out of context and used to justify child abuse.

You don't get to decide how your books are used. You can rail against unethical uses and take action against illegal uses, but once you publish, other people get to decide how to use what you've made available. Authors have *never* been able to control the direction and methods of the spread of their books.

[Dulin's Books]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

Here is my question: Which is a larger ethical violation: buying a geo restricted book using a VPN blocker or using the darknet to download a book?

.

sure the second is much worse. one is "travelling" to where you can purchase it and doing so. the other is getting a copy from your neighbor after he finishes making a few thousand using his scanner

[Xanthe]

Why on earth was this made a public poll rather than an anonymous one?