Do you pirate books and why?

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

Most of my books are available in paperback, so it's entirely possible to find a used copy.

And how does that reader benefit you more than someone who downloaded it from a torrent site? In either case, you're not getting paid for the reading. Are fans who read used pbooks better fans than ones who read unauthorized ebooks? Do you think they'll buy more books full-price in the future?

It's my experience that used pbook readers buy more used pbooks in the future; download-and-torrent ebook readers can be enticed to buy new ebooks for full price, if the prices are reasonable & the books available to them.

I'm not a gestapo about it people downloading for free; Why waste my time over something outside my control.

I don't gripe about authors who quietly disapprove of downloading; it's the ones who go out of their way to rant about (or at) people who admit to reading without paying for an ebook who bug me. Especially ones who say that every download is "literally taking food out of their child's mouth."

It has nothing to do with not wanting "poor" readers. It has to do with the availability of a pirate copy that threatens my ability to make a living.

How do pirate ebooks threaten your income more than used pbooks? More specifically: how do pirate ebooks threaten your income *so much more* than used pbooks, that you actively suggest people seek used pbooks but berate people for the concept of unauthorized ebooks?

Most authors make their books as available as humanly possible. My books are cheap enough that pricing should not be an issue. If you're in the US, there are at least 3 libraries with copies of my books; you can interlibrary loan them.

I don't read pbooks for entertainment. I don't do DRM. (This includes library DRM; I have no DRM-reading software on my computers.) If it's not available as a drm-free ebook for under $6, it's outside of my scope.

I'm not saying that authors have to fit themselves inside my constraints; there are plenty of people willing to buy $10 DRM'd ebooks, and authors are welcome to seek their patronage. I'm saying that I spend money on ebooks, I spend *time* on ebooks, and I don't bother even looking at anything outside of my restrictions.

I am *thrilled* to live at a point in history where I can choose which authors to support, by criteria of my choice, and still have an endless supply of excellent reading material.

Books are a luxury for many, but that doesn't really excuse stealing them.

"Stealing" means taking something away, not making so many extras that they're no longer profitable to sell.

An uploader may be "stealing profits" but they're not "stealing books." And by that logic, a used bookstore is also "stealing profits"--after all, those people could be buying the ebook instead.

--------
Side note: These are rhetorical questions, not specifically aimed at you. Your books are available at Smashwords at quite reasonable prices.

[ProfCrash]

Originally Posted by The Terminator

But if you have purchased the paperback for full price and the ebook isn't available wouldn't it not be morally wrong to download the ebook?

Not in my mind. The Publisher or the Author has not tried to make the book available in the format that I read. When they do, I will buy the e-book.

Admittedly, there are books I would love to read as e-books that are not available that I have not gone searching for. I am thinking of John Dos Passos. I really want to re-read the USA trilogy but is not available as an e-book. I get that there are fewer people who are interested in reading his stuff because he is not as well known. There is a backlog for putting older books into e-book format. I get that.

JKR has made a consciencious decision to not make her books available as e-books. She has made them available as audio books, many editions of paper and hard back books, movies, legos, video games, and other mediums. I don't feel in the least bit bad about reading her books on my e-reader because she has decided to screw with her fans. She has gone so far as to promise the books, delay the books, give an unambiguous date as to when the books will be available. In my mind she has given me the finger and I am fine with giving it right back to her. When she makes them available as e-books I will buy them.

So I guess I take issue with living authors who are trying to tell me that one (or more) format is acceptable but the format that is now developing and growing in popularity is some how or another problematic does not deserve my patience and or understanding.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

And how does that reader benefit you more than someone who downloaded it from a torrent site? In either case, you're not getting paid for the reading. Are fans who read used pbooks better fans than ones who read unauthorized ebooks? Do you think they'll buy more books full-price in the future?

They are legal fans and aren't supporting sites that encourage pirating. If no one downloaded illegal copies, those sites wouldn't exist. So I value that someone goes to the trouble to buy a legal copy even if I don't personally gain. I value that same effort if the user borrows a copy. I value that effort if a person is too poor to buy a copy so they start a website and review books in order to obtain legal copies. I value the effort.

It's my experience that used pbook readers buy more used pbooks in the future; download-and-torrent ebook readers can be enticed to buy new ebooks for full price, if the prices are reasonable & the books available to them.

Torrent sites support a model that does zero for me. Zero. I am guessing that a used book buyer is going to try to buy it used from what I've seen, but if the deal is good, they will buy the next one new (Amazon's four for three for example, or going in with a friend, their mom, etc to buy series that they like.) Used book buyers are also BIG library users (at least the ones in my cozy group are). If they ask for my book at the library that is a sale. There are at least two libraries that carry my books. Someone went to the trouble to ASK a library to carry my books. I value that fan. Ohboy, do I value that fan.

I'm sure that some torrent-downloaders can be enticed to buy a book at full price. It's probably somewhere along the lines of used book buyers or perhaps less. After all it's easier and faster to download from a torrent site than it is to go to the trouble to pay for a book in any form.

How do pirate ebooks threaten your income more than used pbooks? More specifically: how do pirate ebooks threaten your income *so much more* than used pbooks, that you actively suggest people seek used pbooks but berate people for the concept of unauthorized ebooks?

Because torrent sites support the idea that books don't have to be paid for--this is the largest threat to my income ever--a general opinion or growing culture of readers that download for free because they can. Or because they believe it is okay or because they don't want to pursue other options such as a library or lending or buying new. Because darknet sites could not and would not exist if no one went there.

If a person buys a used paperback copy, it will eventually get used up or be out of circulation, encouraging the sale of a new book. Torrent sites? Never happens. Never will happen. If a person buys a used copy and loves the book they will keep it. They will tell their friends or show their friends. That same "free download" from a torrent site? Well that same reader is likely to tell their friend where they got it. Or just email them the copy. It's fast. It's easy. The reader may not even remember it is an illegal copy.

I don't read pbooks for entertainment. I don't do DRM. (This includes library DRM; I have no DRM-reading software on my computers.) If it's not available as a drm-free ebook for under $6, it's outside of my scope.

I'm not saying that authors have to fit themselves inside my constraints; there are plenty of people willing to buy $10 DRM'd ebooks, and authors are welcome to seek their patronage. I'm saying that I spend money on ebooks, I spend *time* on ebooks, and I don't bother even looking at anything outside of my restrictions.

Your restrictions don't make illegal downloads legal. You're entitled to set your own rules about DRM or pricing or anything else as a consumer. But that doesn't change the legality of it. If you chose to use a torrent site, you help keep them going by your patronage. And those same sites could hurt authors who fall within your restrictions.

You are exercising a choice as a consumer. I don't get that same privilege as a writer/author. I don't want my works on torrent sites, but I don't have any say in it.

"Stealing" means taking something away, not making so many extras that they're no longer profitable to sell.

An uploader may be "stealing profits" but they're not "stealing books." And by that logic, a used bookstore is also "stealing profits"--after all, those people could be buying the ebook instead.

We could argue the definition of stealing, but stealing is essentially taking something that does not belong to you. This isn't the legal definition either. But the author and publisher intended to create a book for sale. Torrent sites contain stolen material. Yes, a used bookstore is stealing potential profits. It just happens to be legal to sell a used copy. And again, from my viewpoint, it at least sets expectations that the product is worth something and that it is not okay to just go find a way to obtain it for free.

Side note: These are rhetorical questions, not specifically aimed at you. Your books are available at Smashwords at quite reasonable prices.

Thanks. I appreciate you noticing.

As an author, I do what I can to get books to those who cannot afford them--this includes library participation (and if you think that is easy to achieve, let me just set the record straight--it's not. It's extremely difficult to get my books into libraries without a publisher backing me.) I also do plenty of giveaways, review copies and so on. And my books are pretty affordable. I provide as little excuse as possible for someone to turn to the darknets.

[Dulin's Books]

How do pirate ebooks threaten your income more than used pbooks? More specifically: how do pirate ebooks threaten your income *so much more* than used pbooks, that you actively suggest people seek used pbooks but berate people for the concept of unauthorized ebooks?

how? lets say the publisher prints 1000 paperbacks. thats all of those that will ever be in circulation. if you give your copy to your brother you dont have it to give to another person. if you digitize it yourself and stick it online for downloading by others there are now a limitless supply available. now if the author/publisher gets around to selling the E version thousands of people already have it. they wont be paying for it. you've devalued it with your actions.

[The Terminator]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

Not in my mind. The Publisher or the Author has not tried to make the book available in the format that I read. When they do, I will buy the e-book.

Admittedly, there are books I would love to read as e-books that are not available that I have not gone searching for. I am thinking of John Dos Passos. I really want to re-read the USA trilogy but is not available as an e-book. I get that there are fewer people who are interested in reading his stuff because he is not as well known. There is a backlog for putting older books into e-book format. I get that.

JKR has made a consciencious decision to not make her books available as e-books. She has made them available as audio books, many editions of paper and hard back books, movies, legos, video games, and other mediums. I don't feel in the least bit bad about reading her books on my e-reader because she has decided to screw with her fans. She has gone so far as to promise the books, delay the books, give an unambiguous date as to when the books will be available. In my mind she has given me the finger and I am fine with giving it right back to her. When she makes them available as e-books I will buy them.

So I guess I take issue with living authors who are trying to tell me that one (or more) format is acceptable but the format that is now developing and growing in popularity is some how or another problematic does not deserve my patience and or understanding.

That's pretty much what I said, if the ebooks aren't available why not just buy the paperback (The Right to read the content of the book) and then just download the ebook? Unless of course there is a ebook that can be purchased.

[xg4bx]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

I'm always surprised at the number of authors who say this... "if my book's not available in a format you like at a cost you can afford, just don't read it."

Because, what, they don't *want* fans who aren't customers? They're under the impression that big-name award-winning authors got that way entirely from people who bought their books?

Of course, if the writer has *no interest* in cultivating readers who don't pay... why do they care? What harm does it do them, once they've announced "if you're not buying my book, don't read it," if someone reads it anyway?

I get really sick of the attitude, "if you're not a paying customer, you're not a real fan of my writing." Authors used to be happy to have fans who haunted secondhand book shops because they couldn't afford new books. Now, more and more, I see authors who think the only valid appreciation of their work is a new purchase... and of course, new readers should just *know* that they'll love this author's work, and fork over money for it instead of someone they already know they enjoy because they read some of the other author's works for free.

When an author says, "if my books aren't available in your region, don't download them--just wait, or read something else," I interpret that as "my books are not intended for poor readers; I only want fans above a certain income level."

i see the authors point but to get right down to the heart of it: i'm giving an author hours and days of my infinitely more valuable life that i will NEVER get back by reading their work and listening to their "voice". so yea, i'm a fan no matter how i acquire said novel. if i wasn't a fan i wouldn't even waste the brain cells to process their name.


"and of course, new readers should just *know* that they'll love this author's work, and fork over money for it instead of someone they already know they enjoy because they read some of the other author's works for free."

that ties right into my massive pet peeve of giving new authors anything other than paperback/ebook publication. sorry, i'm not dropping $16 on an authors first book in trade format or ebook. for that money i can buy something i'll love, not gamble on a newbie author. if the only way i can sample a new authors work is said expensive trade/ebook, its getting pirated. *looks squarely at PYR* i'm sure i'd enjoy their stuff but if i've got $15 to spend and its a choice between a new Monster Hunter novel or a new author who may be good but i'm not quite sure, bring on the Monster Hunter.

i looooove Monster Hunter, i only discovered it thanks to piracy. i went on to buy physical copies of all of the authors books. tbqh thats happened quite often. easily a dozen authors have become immediate purchases thanks to "sampling" one of their novels.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Dulin's Books

how? lets say the publisher prints 1000 paperbacks. thats all of those that will ever be in circulation. if you give your copy to your brother you dont have it to give to another person. if you digitize it yourself and stick it online for downloading by others there are now a limitless supply available. now if the author/publisher gets around to selling the E version thousands of people already have it. they wont be paying for it. you've devalued it with your actions.

Are you under the impression the Harry Potter ebooks won't sell any copies because everyone that wants them, already has them? That the Lord of the Rings ebooks sold poorly because digital copies had already been floating around the internet for at least 10 years?

While some people won't buy the official version if they've already read the bootleg, others will, especially if the official version is well-formatted and reasonably priced. ("Reasonably priced" starts with "costs less than the 14th reprint of the paperback." Dune, 40th anniv edition, is right now $10 in new mmpb, $.01+shipping for used, and $15 for the Kindle. Pirate versions have been around for at least 15 years, probably longer... if the K-version's not selling well, those aren't the reason.)

I've bought books I first acquired by download, because if the books are in the right price range, I don't feel I was cheated by buying them. Just like I've bought secondhand paperbacks I already owned, and sometimes slapped my forehead afterward (d'oh! I shoulda got the *other* one!), but don't feel like I need to take careful inventory before I go shopping. I don't think I've bought anything from both Fictionwise and AllRomanceEbooks, but it's probably just a matter of time.

I wouldn't say unauthorized downloads never cut into sales. I would say that they bring a wider awareness of the author, and that the impact on the industry as a whole has likely been positive--because the bootleg ebooks both get people interested in ebooks and expose them to new authors.

The most active uploaders are also the most active buyers. People who care about distributing digital media are people who *love* the creative industries, and support them with their dollars, and encourage others to love those industries.

I'm not saying uploading should all be legal, or that crackdowns shouldn't happen (although I'm rather ambivalent on both of those), but that the uploading & downloading that has already happened, has had some benefits--and authors & publishers should both be trying to figure out how to use those and expand on them, along with figuring out how to make more money. And they should really take a sharp look at the concept of "1 buyer = 1 user" and note what other industries that does and does not work for.

[Dulin's Books]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

The most active uploaders are also the most active buyers. People who care about distributing digital media are people who *love* the creative industries, and support them with their dollars, and encourage others to love those industries.

thats incredibly naive. the most active uploaders could just as easily be the most active thieves. people who just steal the books, scan them and then distribute them for the advertising hits to the website. or scan them and sell them in markets that the books have not arrived yet. absolutley the most active uploaders of digital movies are thieves.

[ProfCrash]

Originally Posted by The Terminator

That's pretty much what I said, if the ebooks aren't available why not just buy the paperback (The Right to read the content of the book) and then just download the ebook? Unless of course there is a ebook that can be purchased.

My apologies, I read your post differently. I read it as the if I bought the paperback I can download the free version. Not buy the paperback and then download the free version since the e-book is not available.

I own hardback copies of all of the books that I have downloaded from the darknet. Actually, I have owned paperback and hardback versions of all of those books.

Originally Posted by The Terminator

But if you have purchased the paperback for full price and the ebook isn't available wouldn't it not be morally wrong to download the ebook?

It's hard to say. One thing to consider is that format shifting is a relatively new idea, especially for books. Doing so without degrading the quality is an especially new idea. So a paperback was always a paperback and a hard cover was always a hard cover, and their value was determined separately. Now we have a new format, the ebook. Format shifting a pbook to an ebook means that we are not determining their value separately.

So here's a few questions: when downloading that ebook for a pbook that you already own, how do you determine which edition to go for? Do you go for the standard edition or the enhanced edition? Does being electronic mean that an ebook has more value? It is more convenient to purchase, will never wear down, and is easier to carry around. Or does an ebook have less value, because you cannot sell/lend/donate it when you're done?

And how do you account for the author's desires? Sure, some will give you a wink and a nudge because they are perfectly okay with the conversion but don't have the rights to make an electronic edition. On the other hand, some authors are very business oriented and view electronic copies as a threat to their control of the supply side economics.

I think the morality of the whole thing is difficult to answer, and different people will come up with different answers based upon their interests in the matter (e.g. consumer vs. author vs. publisher).

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

I've bought books I first acquired by download, because if the books are in the right price range, I don't feel I was cheated by buying them.

Yet the author and publisher may feel cheated. If you downloaded it when it was $15 and bought it when it was $5, you are mucking around with their decision to place a premium on new releases. In reality, you could have just waited until the book reaches an acceptable price and simply bought it then (without downloading it beforehand).

I wouldn't say unauthorized downloads never cut into sales. I would say that they bring a wider awareness of the author, and that the impact on the industry as a whole has likely been positive--because the bootleg ebooks both get people interested in ebooks and expose them to new authors.

For the most part, I agree with you. As Doctorow claims, obscurity is the author's worse enemy. Yet shouldn't the author/publisher be deciding how to promote their work? Some can do as Doctorow does, and just give it away in hopes that people will pay. Others can offer free samples, either as portions of books or portions of series. But the decision is placed in their hands based upon what they think their bests interests are, rather than in the hands of others who are dictating what their supposed best interests are.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by BWinmill

Yet the author and publisher may feel cheated. If you downloaded it when it was $15 and bought it when it was $5, you are mucking around with their decision to place a premium on new releases.

Generally, I downloaded before they were available from authorized digital sources at all. A couple were Baen ebooks; the prices on those don't change over time.

I'm not going to feel a lot of guilt for getting digital copies of books I owned in paper. Nor for allowing someone else to do the work of conversion for me; there's no moral imperative to waste hours of my time duplicating someone else's effort in order to avoid supporting an abusive commerce system (DRM) or to get content a publisher hasn't deemed worthwhile to release for sale at all.

For the most part, I agree with you. As Doctorow claims, obscurity is the author's worse enemy. Yet shouldn't the author/publisher be deciding how to promote their work?

Deciding how to promote? Sure. Deciding how their work should reach me? Less sure. They get to decide what options to explore, not how their books are distributed afterthe point of first sale. They don't get to tell me how much I have to spend to read their books; only how much I have to spend to get an authorized first-sale copy. If they want me to pay attention to site licenses that seem to say that I'm not allowed to share ebooks with my husband, they'll need to coordinate with those sites to spell out the terms a lot more clearly, and probably change the "buy this book" button to a "license access to this content" button.

But the decision is placed in their hands based upon what they think their bests interests are, rather than in the hands of others who are dictating what their supposed best interests are.

I'm not pretending I'm supporting their best interests. I'm a reader with money to spend; it's my interests they should be concerned with, not the other way around. Would I be happy if all authors stopped writing? Of course not. Is it going to happen? Hell no, so people can stop throwing that red herring around.

Some particular authors might stop writing, but the field has *always* been crowded with people who stop writing for various personal reasons. "I might not make as much money as I would have if people treated my works like I want them to" is not a viewpoint I have a lot of sympathy for. Neither is "people are reading my work without paying for it!", which, as I've said, is insulting to everyone who grew up reading used books.

I spent more money at DriveThruRPG than at Smashwords last year. More than that at e23.com. Everything I bought is available on the torrents; I make a conscious decision to support authors and publishers whose methods I like, who don't treat me like a criminal they're trying to scam before I scam them.

I have considered stopping buying ebooks at all, and sticking to Creative Commons releases, promotional freebies, public domain works, and fanfic. It's not like I'd run out of things to read. So far, I'm still leaning towards "support the authors and publishers I like with money," but that's partially because I have leisure income.

I feel no qualms about telling people on tighter budgets than me that no, the digital content age doesn't have the equivalent of used book stores, so until someone comes up with it, give up on paid ebooks and here's where to find the legit freebies. Get back to me when you've gone through a few hundred of those and I can try to help you find paid books within your budget--or I can show you how to find more legit freebies.

While I can also help people find unauthorized books, I'm much happier showing them how to find ways to flip off the system without breaking any rules. There's something satisfying in being able to say "I read a million words last month, all provided to me for free by people who were happy to do so;" with a less direct secondary message of "so, if authors want me to buy their works? They'll need to come up with a stronger sales pitch than 'you might enjoy reading this.'"

[Dallista]

Originally Posted by Dulin's Books

wait. read something else.

The problem is that so far, I've seen no indication that the books will ever made available to me on the amazon US website, i.e. the only website I can legally buy these e-books. Amazon have proven I can read their newly released SW novels within a few minutes past midnight on release day. We're now eight months past release of those older novels. Wait? I think they've had more than enough time to solve any issues with geo-restrictions, release in European countries or whatever the problem is.
But yeah, I'll read something else. Like the new novels, which thankfully I can get.

Originally Posted by Dallista

I've seen no indication that the books will ever made available to me on the amazon US website, i.e. the only website I can legally buy these e-books.

Then I guess they won't be getting your money.

Back when I had a Kindle, I had to deal with Amazon being unable or unwilling to sell me books so I simply had to do with out. It sucks, but ya know what? I survived the ordeal.

[Yapyap]

I understand - I do understand - authors getting angry at people who get a copy of their work illegally and for some inexplicable reason feel the need to tell the author that. (I suspect some of those authors silently fume also whenever someone tells them they borrowed a paper copy from a friend and loved it, or got a copy used and loved it, but as these actions are legal and generally supported by society as moral, it doesn't do to go ballistic about those things openly.)

Although I've actually heard of quite a few authors, especially traditionally published midlist authors, speak up to their fanbase and beg them to buy new, not used. (And of course in some notorious cases, order them to buy a book on a specific date, tell foreign fans that they don't count and flip when someone has bought their book, new, from a bookshop, on the wrong day, due to having surgery on the right day.)

Anyway, back to my point: I do understand authors not liking the idea that someone gets their book by illegal means. If I was an author, I wouldn't, either.

But... telling potential readers that the author would prefer they didn't read their books at all, if they're currently not in a position to buy a legal copy (or obtain it legally in other ways, such as from a library / paper copy from a friend)... I honestly don't understand that attitude either.

I mean, if you tell someone "if you can't afford it, don't read it", you'll very likely lose a potential paying customer in the future. On the other hand, while many of the people who read "for free" are not going to turn into paying customers (because they have an attitude of being entitled to get everything for free or because the book didn't appeal to them enough to become/remain a fan of the author), others will.

If they've read and liked the book, no matter whether they borrowed a paper copy from a friend living next door (legal) or a de-DRM-d e-copy from a friend living on another continent (horrible crime), they will buy the author's books in the future, if they're in a position to do so; they will do word-of-mouth advertising for the book, recommend it to their friends (some of whom may buy a legal copy), gush about it in reviews on Goodreads or Amazon; they may even turn into the sort of fan who will buy multiple copies of every new book in the future either for themselves or as gifts.

(No, I'm not saying that every pirate will turn into an exceptionally good paying customer. Of course not. It's quite likely that even the majority won't - if for no other reason then because the majority of people reading any book will at best think "meh" about it and move on to something else. But some will, unlike the people who might have been interested in a book, were not in a position to read it legally, and got told by the author that people like them aren't wanted as readers at all.)