Screwed by Tor again... - Page 15

Taylor514ce · 08-25-2008, 05:24 PM

I am not a member of the staff at mobileread, and my opinions are my own. I posted what I posted at TOR.com, because I felt it was the appropriate spot to do so. I didn't start a new thread, etc. I linked back HERE because I didn't want to continue the argument THERE, which should at least be in agreement with your own general principles, from what I can discern.

I don't think there is anything shameful about this thread, no. Someone linking over from TOR will find a very interesting thread, a very thought-provoking discussion on e-books, TOR in particular, and the possible effects of their actions, etc. and a very dynamic, diverse, passionate, knowledgeable community.

If they are generally interested in e-books, I'm pretty sure they'll look around, and stay. If they are here only to argue on behalf of tor-the-blog-site's right to set the tone in their own community, and don't wish to hear dissenting opinions, nor have much interest in e-books, then I don't expect they'll stick around.

So for all those linking over from the e-books thread on tor.com, welcome to MobileRead. Have fun.

Robotech_Master · 08-25-2008, 05:29 PM

The key difference, I think, is that MobileRead doesn't have a financial stake involved. Tor.com, on the other hand, being connected to Tor the publisher insofar as it shares a name, employees, and some books that were given away, could definitely affect the financial fortunes of its parent.

You know how businesses don't want other people using their trademarks because people could erroneously assume the users are associated with the business and reflect poorly on it? (Big case in point being day care centers and Disney characters.) Well, it's like that, except in this case Tor.com is associated with Tor/Macmillan.

bwaldron · 08-25-2008, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evilrooster

Do you think this is a good introduction to your community for people who have followed the links from Tor.com? Do you want them as members? Does good community or good customer service only go one way?

A number of us are members of both communities, even if not active in the threads here or there. As one such individual, my opinion is that the "Tories" are coming off in a very condescending manner and alienating a community of folks who really want to like them.

And yeah, I actually think this thread is fine as an introduction to the community here.

Greg Anos · 08-25-2008, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taylor514ce

I am not a member of the staff at mobileread, and my opinions are my own. I posted what I posted at TOR.com, because I felt it was the appropriate spot to do so. I didn't start a new thread, etc. I linked back HERE because I didn't want to continue the argument THERE, which should at least be in agreement with your own general principles, from what I can discern.

I don't think there is anything shameful about this thread, no. Someone linking over from TOR will find a very interesting thread, a very thought-provoking discussion on e-books, TOR in particular, and the possible effects of their actions, etc. and a very dynamic, diverse, passionate, knowledgeable community.

If they are generally interested in e-books, I'm pretty sure they'll look around, and stay. If they are here only to argue on behalf of tor-the-blog-site's right to set the tone in their own community, and don't wish to hear dissenting opinions, nor have much interest in e-books, then I don't expect they'll stick around.

So for all those linking over from the e-books thread on tor.com, welcome to MobileRead. Have fun.

Lest you think we're all cranky, check out some the Unutterably Silly threads. (or shucks, look closely at some of the avatars (like mine).

evilrooster · 08-25-2008, 07:46 PM

OK, look, I came in all wrong. I was anticipating being attacked (considering some of the posting history on this topic, I think that's a reasonable expectation, TBH). But I should have left some of the defensiveness between the keyboard and the chair, as they say.

I still think there is a clash of mental models going on here.

I understand how the people who feel that Tor promised one thing and delivered something else are so annoyed. And I can see how they feel that they weren't treated with the level of customer service they had hoped for. I happen to think that the reaction to finding out that the initial guess about what Tor.com was wrong is a little over the top, but that's not to say I don't see the line of thought that led up to it.

But can anyone here try to set that aside for a little bit, and see the same transaction from the point of view of people trying to build an lively, enthusiastic community? Can anyone see how the tone and demeanor of the people who came to tor.com to complain was antithetical to that goal? Because until you can see that, you can't understand how this situation came about. And all this unproductive and wasteful anger could be used on better causes.

My perception of tor.com is that it is a long term project, years long, with an eye to associating the Tor brand with a lively, interesting and intelligent community in the science fiction world. That takes priority, I suspect, over the sales of a few eBooks at the start.

But the message that there is an appetite for eBooks has certainly gotten across. I don't know Tor politics, but I know big corporate politics, and I suspect that the eBook people at Tor (and I understand that there are many) appreciated having some weight behind their arguments about the importance of getting electronic editions out. Having people get too angry and say they won't buy them may be counterproductive, of course, but I suspect the good effect outweighs the bad.

Another good effect of the intersection between these communities is that, from what I hear, some of the Tor PDF's weren't formatted correctly. I understand you guys have a lot of expertise in that kind of area. If you're not perceived as being quite so annoyed at tor.com, I bet some of the people there would love to discuss the matter with you.

I don't know that I will hang out much on MobileRead. I am actually between eBook readers, having worn out my Palm Vx through overuse. And, as a hobby bookbinder, I do have at least one foot in the pBook world. But one day, I'd like to bind an eBook reader in a traditional pBook style, and have the best of both worlds. Can I come here for advice when that time comes?

zelda_pinwheel · 08-25-2008, 07:53 PM

thanks for that elegant change of tone, evilrooster. it's refreshing when someone can take a breath and come back calmer.

you're welcome around here for any discussion or advice you would like. we do indeed have many very knowledgeable people around here and they are all too happy to share their expertise, so please feel free to ask any questions you may have. and i'm sure i'm not the only one who would love to see that ebook reader bound as a traditional pbook. in fact, take a look around, you might get some ideas from previous projects.

Taylor514ce · 08-25-2008, 07:54 PM

Advice and a market, I can assure you.

slayda · 08-25-2008, 07:57 PM

First, welcome EvilRooster & I really mean that. We often pick on each other here. I know that Taylor, Nate & I have had our share. So it's not just you or even Tor. We're a passionate bunch.

I, for one, will apologize for causing any ill feelings. I'm really not a mean old man - well I am old and a man so 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

I do find it quite interesting that Tor.com which has no affiliation with Tor Publishing but has a moderator whose on-line name is Torie gives away for free, several ebooks that are published by Tor Publishing. That just seems like a lot of coincidences to me. I wonder how much Tor.com paid Tor Publishing for those giveaways to advertise their general SciFi forum. But Since there is no affiliation I'm sure it was a good business decision by Tor Publishing.

Other than that, "Yeah - What RickyMaveety said."

EvilRooster, please stay and join in the fun. Just keep in mind that we really, really like ebooks and want to see them succeed big time!

bwaldron · 08-25-2008, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

thanks for that elegant change of tone, evilrooster. it's refreshing when someone can take a breath and come back calmer.

Seconded.

evilrooster · 08-25-2008, 08:07 PM

slayda,

Thanks. I confess that you got under my skin with the comment about trying to get a rise out of Nate a while back. But that's water (with Pooh sticks, if you will) under the bridge.

My understanding is that there is an association between Tor and tor.com, but that tor.com is not a sales vehicle for Tor. I reckon tor.com is probably best thought of as a long-term sponsorship venture for an online community, much like corporate funding of a sports stadium or a tennis tournament. But you can't buy a Monster Cable subscription at the stadium formerly known as Candlestick Park, for instance.

However, Torie's name is a coincidence, plain and simple. Sometimes things like that really do happen.

Robotech_Master · 08-25-2008, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evilrooster

OK, look, I came in all wrong. I was anticipating being attacked (considering some of the posting history on this topic, I think that's a reasonable expectation, TBH). But I should have left some of the defensiveness between the keyboard and the chair, as they say.

Much like Luke Skywalker and that big creepy tree cave thingie, what you find in a forum is what you bring to it. Come in expecting to be attacked, and by golly people will be happy attack you.

Quote:

I still think there is a clash of mental models going on here.

Fair enough.

Quote:

Can anyone see how the tone and demeanor of the people who came to tor.com to complain was antithetical to that goal?

Sure, I can. But I can also understand the frustration, as I've felt that way myself. I can also understand the tendency to post angry rants before thinking about it. I'm pretty sure I've got Aspergers, and it wasn't so long ago that I would have lashed out in exactly that way. It has taken me years—long, hard, frustrating years—to develop the self-control not to, so when I see people acting like that, I largely feel sorry for them that they haven't developed that self-control yet. I feel like that, plus my customer service training (which really helped with that self-control—nothing helps you learn to put a lid on it like knowing you'll be fired if you don't!) give me the insight to know how they should be handled.

Anyway, Torie and pnh aren't just forum moderators, and the issue wasn't just a forum issue. If they were, that's fine. They could be perfectly free to be snippy, and we (in the all-inclusive we, not meaning me in particular) could be pissed off at them as moderators, and maybe at the forum as a whole, but it wouldn't go any farther than that.

Unfortunately, the issue was one of Tor-the-publishing-house, and pnh and Torie are VIPs at Tor-the-publishing-house—it says so right there in the "About Us" page. In that situation, they aren't just moderators for Tor.com, but People Who Speak For Tor-the-publishing-house, and their words will reflect on Tor-the-publishing-house as well as Tor.com.

Done right, customer service is a sort of mental judo. You take someone coming in on an angry vector and let his own energy twist him around until he leaves on a happier one. You do that with an apology. If you apologize to a blustering person, admit he has a right to be upset, and promise you're working on the problem, he'll feel validated and, if not entirely happy, at least satisfied to have gotten it off his chest and be heard. If instead you yell at him, he'll just yell back and nobody will be happy.

Quote:

My perception of tor.com is that it is a long term project, years long, with an eye to associating the Tor brand with a lively, interesting and intelligent community in the science fiction world. That takes priority, I suspect, over the sales of a few eBooks at the start.

I don't know that it's possible to build a lively, interesting, and intelligent community by yelling back when people yell at you. And if Tor representatives come off as surly, it could affect more than just the sale of the e-books. (People won't remember the provocation. They'll just remember the unprofessionalism of the ones who were provoked.)

evilrooster · 08-25-2008, 08:22 PM

One thing, and then I really am to bed. Nothing personal, but it's gone 2am, and I have work in the morning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robotech_Master

I don't know that it's possible to build a lively, interesting, and intelligent community by yelling back when people yell at you.

I do know it's not possible to build a lively, interesting and intelligent community by letting people argue endlessly with the moderators. I'm a moderator myself, and I know how a set of disgruntled people feeding off of one another's ire can really poison an entire thread.

Like I said, this is the nub of the clash of mental models. If your priority is a happy customer right now, you do one thing. If your priority is a happy community, you do something else.

I'm not saying you have to agree with the choice that they made. But if you don't understand it, it's a lot harder to move on from it.

slayda · 08-25-2008, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evilrooster

One thing, and then I really am to bed. Nothing personal, but it's gone 2am, and I have work in the morning.

I do know it's not possible to build a lively, interesting and intelligent community by letting people argue endlessly with the moderators. I'm a moderator myself, and I know how a set of disgruntled people feeding off of one another's ire can really poison an entire thread.

Like I said, this is the nub of the clash of mental models. If your priority is a happy customer right now, you do one thing. If your priority is a happy community, you do something else.

I'm not saying you have to agree with the choice that they made. But if you don't understand it, it's a lot harder to move on from it.

Thanks for coming back to talk to us & goodnight.

Robotech_Master · 08-25-2008, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evilrooster

I do know it's not possible to build a lively, interesting and intelligent community by letting people argue endlessly with the moderators. I'm a moderator myself, and I know how a set of disgruntled people feeding off of one another's ire can really poison an entire thread.

I've been a moderator, too, and the thing is that it takes two sides to have an argument. There's not much someone inclined to be argumentative can say to, "I'm sorry, you're absolutely right, those emails were a bit unclear, and I apologize. We're working on getting those e-books ready for you as soon as we can, but there are technical issues that need to be worked out." They can complain that the books are not available right now, but even they will realize (sooner or later) that their complaining won't help matters.

If they do try to continue the argument, then you politely but firmly explain that you already answered their question and you don't respond to them anymore. You don't rise to the bait. Or, as the old Internet aphorism goes, "Don't feed the trolls."

Even if they didn't want to apologize or get all customer-servicy, there were sure to be other, better, more moderatorly responses they could have made besides getting all huffy and scornful. Moderators are supposed to moderate, like oil on troubled water, not intensify like water on a chemical fire.

Understand, I have nothing against Torie and pnh as people. I'm sure they're great, and I've known many great people myself (not to mention occasionally being one) who had a gift for saying absolutely the wrong thing at the wrong time. I just think they could have made some better choices in how they responded to those angry rants.

nekokami · 08-25-2008, 09:36 PM

Hi evilrooster, and welcome to Mobileread!

I can see your point about Torie and PNH acting as moderators of an online community, rather than as official representatives of Tor publishing (though I think that connection is inescapable in situations like this). But I am one of the moderators here at Mobileread, and I have to say that PNH's reply (saying that he and his associates laughed at someone for being upset that additional ebooks were not in the offing from tor.com) really didn't fit with my perception of him prior to this kerfluffle. It was disappointing, to say the least. As a forum moderator, it's not something I would have done, because I can hardly see that it could help the tone of the discussion.

Then again, moderators are human too, and I've had times when I've been quite taken aback by something someone posted, and not known how to respond. And certainly there have been times when my online (or in-person) communications haven't been quite as polished or professional as I would like.

Now, leaving this unpleasantness aside for a moment, we've had a couple of threads here at MR about creating cases for ebook readers made from old books or from many other sorts of found materials (and yvanleterrible has some lovely pictures of his handmade wooden cases), and we've even had a thread about creating a "steampunk" surface treatment on a reader, but I don't think anyone has started a thread about using traditional bookbinding techniques to construct a new case. I think you'd get a lot of interest in a thread like that. I know I'd like to participate! My bookbinding skills are very amateur at best, but it sounds like a fascinating idea.

08-25-2008, 05:24 PM	#211
Taylor514ce Actively passive. Posts: 2,042 Karma: 478376 Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: US Device: Sony PRS-505/LC	I am not a member of the staff at mobileread, and my opinions are my own. I posted what I posted at TOR.com, because I felt it was the appropriate spot to do so. I didn't start a new thread, etc. I linked back HERE because I didn't want to continue the argument THERE, which should at least be in agreement with your own general principles, from what I can discern. I don't think there is anything shameful about this thread, no. Someone linking over from TOR will find a very interesting thread, a very thought-provoking discussion on e-books, TOR in particular, and the possible effects of their actions, etc. and a very dynamic, diverse, passionate, knowledgeable community. If they are generally interested in e-books, I'm pretty sure they'll look around, and stay. If they are here only to argue on behalf of tor-the-blog-site's right to set the tone in their own community, and don't wish to hear dissenting opinions, nor have much interest in e-books, then I don't expect they'll stick around. So for all those linking over from the e-books thread on tor.com, welcome to MobileRead. Have fun. Last edited by Taylor514ce; 08-25-2008 at 05:55 PM.

08-25-2008, 07:57 PM	#218
slayda Retired & reading more! Posts: 2,764 Karma: 1884247 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: North Alabama, USA Device: Kindle 1, iPad Air 2, iPhone 6S+, Kobo Aura One	First, welcome EvilRooster & I really mean that. We often pick on each other here. I know that Taylor, Nate & I have had our share. So it's not just you or even Tor. We're a passionate bunch. I, for one, will apologize for causing any ill feelings. I'm really not a mean old man - well I am old and a man so 2 out of 3 ain't bad. I do find it quite interesting that Tor.com which has no affiliation with Tor Publishing but has a moderator whose on-line name is Torie gives away for free, several ebooks that are published by Tor Publishing. That just seems like a lot of coincidences to me. I wonder how much Tor.com paid Tor Publishing for those giveaways to advertise their general SciFi forum. But Since there is no affiliation I'm sure it was a good business decision by Tor Publishing. Other than that, "Yeah - What RickyMaveety said." EvilRooster, please stay and join in the fun. Just keep in mind that we really, really like ebooks and want to see them succeed big time! Last edited by slayda; 08-25-2008 at 07:59 PM.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Hacks Think I screwed up my Kindle 1 screensavers	clerky96	Amazon Kindle	0	06-28-2010 01:02 PM
Authors get screwed by Agent Model	Daithi	News	19	02-03-2010 02:11 PM
I screwed up BIG TIME!	Alfy	Sony Reader	11	11-05-2009 06:25 PM
Am I screwed?	FligMupple	Amazon Kindle	36	10-11-2009 09:55 AM

08-25-2008, 05:29 PM	#212
Robotech_Master Fanatic Posts: 514 Karma: 2954711 Join Date: May 2006	The key difference, I think, is that MobileRead doesn't have a financial stake involved. Tor.com, on the other hand, being connected to Tor the publisher insofar as it shares a name, employees, and some books that were given away, could definitely affect the financial fortunes of its parent. You know how businesses don't want other people using their trademarks because people could erroneously assume the users are associated with the business and reflect poorly on it? (Big case in point being day care centers and Disney characters.) Well, it's like that, except in this case Tor.com is associated with Tor/Macmillan.

08-25-2008, 07:46 PM	#215
evilrooster Junior Member Posts: 9 Karma: 187 Join Date: Aug 2008 Device: Palm Vx (quaint)	OK, look, I came in all wrong. I was anticipating being attacked (considering some of the posting history on this topic, I think that's a reasonable expectation, TBH). But I should have left some of the defensiveness between the keyboard and the chair, as they say. I still think there is a clash of mental models going on here. I understand how the people who feel that Tor promised one thing and delivered something else are so annoyed. And I can see how they feel that they weren't treated with the level of customer service they had hoped for. I happen to think that the reaction to finding out that the initial guess about what Tor.com was wrong is a little over the top, but that's not to say I don't see the line of thought that led up to it. But can anyone here try to set that aside for a little bit, and see the same transaction from the point of view of people trying to build an lively, enthusiastic community? Can anyone see how the tone and demeanor of the people who came to tor.com to complain was antithetical to that goal? Because until you can see that, you can't understand how this situation came about. And all this unproductive and wasteful anger could be used on better causes. My perception of tor.com is that it is a long term project, years long, with an eye to associating the Tor brand with a lively, interesting and intelligent community in the science fiction world. That takes priority, I suspect, over the sales of a few eBooks at the start. But the message that there is an appetite for eBooks has certainly gotten across. I don't know Tor politics, but I know big corporate politics, and I suspect that the eBook people at Tor (and I understand that there are many) appreciated having some weight behind their arguments about the importance of getting electronic editions out. Having people get too angry and say they won't buy them may be counterproductive, of course, but I suspect the good effect outweighs the bad. Another good effect of the intersection between these communities is that, from what I hear, some of the Tor PDF's weren't formatted correctly. I understand you guys have a lot of expertise in that kind of area. If you're not perceived as being quite so annoyed at tor.com, I bet some of the people there would love to discuss the matter with you. I don't know that I will hang out much on MobileRead. I am actually between eBook readers, having worn out my Palm Vx through overuse. And, as a hobby bookbinder, I do have at least one foot in the pBook world. But one day, I'd like to bind an eBook reader in a traditional pBook style, and have the best of both worlds. Can I come here for advice when that time comes?

08-25-2008, 07:53 PM	#216
zelda_pinwheel zeldinha zippy zeldissima Posts: 27,827 Karma: 921169 Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Paris, France Device: eb1150 & is that a nook in her pocket, or she just happy to see you?	thanks for that elegant change of tone, evilrooster. it's refreshing when someone can take a breath and come back calmer. you're welcome around here for any discussion or advice you would like. we do indeed have many very knowledgeable people around here and they are all too happy to share their expertise, so please feel free to ask any questions you may have. and i'm sure i'm not the only one who would love to see that ebook reader bound as a traditional pbook. in fact, take a look around, you might get some ideas from previous projects.

08-25-2008, 07:54 PM	#217
Taylor514ce Actively passive. Posts: 2,042 Karma: 478376 Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: US Device: Sony PRS-505/LC	Advice and a market, I can assure you.

08-25-2008, 08:07 PM	#220
evilrooster Junior Member Posts: 9 Karma: 187 Join Date: Aug 2008 Device: Palm Vx (quaint)	slayda, Thanks. I confess that you got under my skin with the comment about trying to get a rise out of Nate a while back. But that's water (with Pooh sticks, if you will) under the bridge. My understanding is that there is an association between Tor and tor.com, but that tor.com is not a sales vehicle for Tor. I reckon tor.com is probably best thought of as a long-term sponsorship venture for an online community, much like corporate funding of a sports stadium or a tennis tournament. But you can't buy a Monster Cable subscription at the stadium formerly known as Candlestick Park, for instance. However, Torie's name is a coincidence, plain and simple. Sometimes things like that really do happen.

08-25-2008, 09:36 PM	#225
nekokami fruminous edugeek Posts: 6,745 Karma: 551260 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northeast US Device: iPad, eBw 1150	Hi evilrooster, and welcome to Mobileread! I can see your point about Torie and PNH acting as moderators of an online community, rather than as official representatives of Tor publishing (though I think that connection is inescapable in situations like this). But I am one of the moderators here at Mobileread, and I have to say that PNH's reply (saying that he and his associates laughed at someone for being upset that additional ebooks were not in the offing from tor.com) really didn't fit with my perception of him prior to this kerfluffle. It was disappointing, to say the least. As a forum moderator, it's not something I would have done, because I can hardly see that it could help the tone of the discussion. Then again, moderators are human too, and I've had times when I've been quite taken aback by something someone posted, and not known how to respond. And certainly there have been times when my online (or in-person) communications haven't been quite as polished or professional as I would like. Now, leaving this unpleasantness aside for a moment, we've had a couple of threads here at MR about creating cases for ebook readers made from old books or from many other sorts of found materials (and yvanleterrible has some lovely pictures of his handmade wooden cases), and we've even had a thread about creating a "steampunk" surface treatment on a reader, but I don't think anyone has started a thread about using traditional bookbinding techniques to construct a new case. I think you'd get a lot of interest in a thread like that. I know I'd like to participate! My bookbinding skills are very amateur at best, but it sounds like a fascinating idea.

Advert

Advert