Do you pirate books and why?

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by Yapyap

I remove DRM from books I've bought as a matter of course. (I'm not entirely sure whether this makes me a criminal - I've read the Estonian copyright law twice and while it says one shouldn't remove protective measures from works, it also says a physical person has the right to free reproduction of a work for personal use and authors must ensure that any protective measures don't deny people that right to reproduction. Or something like that.)

I've also downloaded books from the darknet. (As far I can tell, this doesn't make a me a criminal here. A pirate though, yes.)

While I'm fully aware that the main reason behind my downloading books is a personal sense of entitlement, I do follow a personal ethical code: I pirate books that are either not legally available as ebooks at all or are not available to me (although in the latter case, I've taken to attempting to pretend I'm American and get it that way, which again means I'm breaking some kind of laws - however, I'd like to believe the authors hate me less for that crime).

I don't know of any Americans who would prefer to NOT get paid. The copyright law is there to help us get paid, so if you have to go around some other law to make sure the author gets some money, well, gosh, I'm sure most of us will hold back any tendency to complain.

[Dulin's Books]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I don't consider that to be ethically wrong. Do you? It's illegal, yes, but is it wrong?

i dont believe its wrong to format shift things you already own for your own use. i do think its wrong to obtain the work in anew format from someone who doesnt have the right to distribute it , especially since they are keeping their own copy to give out again and again.

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

If I own the paper book and the e-book is available, I buy the e-book. I do not believe that buying one version of the good means I can get the next version for free.

If I own the paper book and the e-book is not available, I will download the e-book. When the e-book comes available later, I will buy the e-book.

The reality is that the hardback book is different then the paperback book which is different then the e-book. If I own the hardback book I have to pay for the paperback book if I want that. Why wouldn't I pay for the e-book? There are different production costs associated with each format. If I can, I pay for the format that I want. If that format is not available then I will look else where.

exactly. no one is "owed" by rights owner the work in new form when it becomes available just because they bought it once before. there are production and distribution costs with each new format. if you want it buy it if you dont want to buy it do the "shift" yourself.

[grumbles]

Sigh...

I have never committed an act of piracy in my life. In fact I've only been at sea once (twice actually, going and returning.) However, if one would like to call the act of accessing a work under copyright without compensation to the creator, then, yes. Frequently.

I have (at last count) about 1100 cds and probably at least that many books. About 75-80% of them were purchased used. The publisher, label, author or performer received absolutely nothing (but the government did pick up sales tax.)

Now, some will say that I have the physical objects in my possession but that is to miss the point. Books are not like ordinary objects that you use. The only value of a book is to read it and unless you happen to like to hoard books (which I do), once read, a book has virtually no value whatsoever. The only value is its resale value or the ability to give it to someone else. An ebook that is infested with DRM becomes completely useless, once read. This makes it a very poor value for the buyer. It is also very bad for authors. I can't remember the number of authors I discovered because someone passed me a book and said "you might find this interesting." According to some, if I do this with an ebook, I am committing a crime. What utter rubbish!

Now I do in fact buy ebooks. In fact I was looking back through all the books that I purchased from Kobo over the last two years, including the books that I bout from Baen, it appears that I buy about 75 books a year. But I have fairly tight conditions on what I will buy. I will not buy a book with a list price greater that $10. I have a limited amount of money to spend on books so that's all I will spend on a book. I will not buy a book that is agency priced. I had some Chapters-Indigo gift cards and some discount codes for Kobo. There were some Len Deighton books that I wanted to buy. The books were well within my budget, but because they are agency priced, I could not use the discounts. Sorry No Sale! I acquired the books by other means. It is of no consequence whether I found the as used paperbacks or as files on the net. I read the books and the publisher received nothing. I don't care.

Digital distribution is proving to be a very disruptive technology. Trying to impose physical restrictions on digital distribution is just plain stupid. Only accountants and bean counters would try it. But then they are the people who talk about "piracy" and "intellectual property." It isn't. And do keep in mind that a copyright is not property but only a state granted monopoly (that was once granted for a limited period but now seems to be stretching out to eternity.)

[Dallista]

I pretty much only read Star Wars novels on my Kindle. I buy new releases from the amazon US store, even when they're more expensive than the hardcover (and recently that's always been the case).
I was just as willing to pay for the e-books of the pre- e-reader generation novels, the print versions of which I all own, and I paid the full pound for every single one of those print versions (read: due to importing I paid even more for them than what those books cost in the US bookstores).
But so far, amazon won't let me buy the "old gen" e-books, with the exception of a few prequel trilogy novelizations and short stories. I know they're there, they show up if I search for them without being logged in, but as soon as I want to buy them, some sort of geo-restriction prevents me from acquiring them.
In that case? Yes is the answer. What else am I supposed to do? I bought a Kindle almost exclusively to be able to read Star Wars!

[clashcityrocker]

Only in the occasion that:

I already have the paper book, but want the convienence of the the e-book version.

The publisher has some exclusive tie-up with Amazon/Kindle and it's not available on EPUB for commercial advantage. (in which case, f*** them...)

[Dulin's Books]

Originally Posted by Dallista

What else am I supposed to do?

wait. read something else.

[BearMountainBooks]

I'm actually surprised at the number of people willing to download/pirate copies (for whatever reason.) I would have expected it (hoped?) it was a lot lower. I don't know WHY I expected that, but I did. (Not passing judgement and as a small indie, it's not something that is a huge threat to my income that I know of, but it still surprised me.)

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Dulin's Books

wait. read something else.

I'm always surprised at the number of authors who say this... "if my book's not available in a format you like at a cost you can afford, just don't read it."

Because, what, they don't *want* fans who aren't customers? They're under the impression that big-name award-winning authors got that way entirely from people who bought their books?

Of course, if the writer has *no interest* in cultivating readers who don't pay... why do they care? What harm does it do them, once they've announced "if you're not buying my book, don't read it," if someone reads it anyway?

I get really sick of the attitude, "if you're not a paying customer, you're not a real fan of my writing." Authors used to be happy to have fans who haunted secondhand book shops because they couldn't afford new books. Now, more and more, I see authors who think the only valid appreciation of their work is a new purchase... and of course, new readers should just *know* that they'll love this author's work, and fork over money for it instead of someone they already know they enjoy because they read some of the other author's works for free.

When an author says, "if my books aren't available in your region, don't download them--just wait, or read something else," I interpret that as "my books are not intended for poor readers; I only want fans above a certain income level."

[Dulin's Books]

thats your interpretation. when the real reasons can be all manner of things. from simply not having the time to properly create the ebook, the publisher who created the paper version not operating in your country, ongoing negotiations with publishers who do operate in your country, no time to negotiate with publishers in your country, the publisher being too busy and so they have a backlog of stuff to edit before publication, various timing considerations such as wanting to give time for the first run of hardcovers to sell through before publishing the paperback and ebook versions. maybe they have marketing things to consider before publishing. maybe they want to coordinate the timing of one version with the release of a new book so that people can grab the older one to bring them up to speed for the new one.

i could go on an on with this wall o' text but the point being that there are a thousand and one reasons why the ebook is not available legitimately to you now. pricing is a mix of [how much it cost to make] + [how much we'd like to profit] + [how much the retail market will bear] no one is thinking "lets price this so that this group over here cant afford to buy it" . they are thinking "if i price it that low ill lose money".

but thats one of the reasons lending libraries exist. if you cant afford to buy books, the community has a collection available to lend free to anyone.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Dulin's Books

i could go on an on with this wall o' text but the point being that there are a thousand and one reasons why the ebook is not available legitimately to you now. pricing is a mix of [how much it cost to make] + [how much we'd like to profit] + [how much the retail market will bear] no one is thinking "lets price this so that this group over here cant afford to buy it" . they are thinking "if i price it that low ill lose money".

None of that explains authors telling fans "DON'T READ MY BOOK UNLESS YOU BOUGHT IT."

but thats one of the reasons lending libraries exist. if you cant afford to buy books, the community has a collection available to lend free to anyone.

4 of the 6 agency publishers don't put ebooks in libraries at all; one of them only rents them for a few check-outs.

Again, we're back to, "I only want readers who buy my books under my choice of marketing conditions." Which is fine; authors are free to decide they don't want non-paying fans. I'm kinda baffled about how they think they'll gain new fans that way, but they're certainly allowed to only want direct customers reading their books.

And yes, it's not like there's any shortage of high-quality free and low-cost ebooks available, so I'm not missing out on reading by avoiding authors who only sell DRM'd ebooks; Australian readers are not lacking for reading material by skipping "bestseller" ebooks that aren't sold at all in their country.

I'm just surprised at the number of struggling authors who apparently want their fanbase limited to the size of their direct customer base.

[ProfCrash]

If you cannot get the book legitimately then I have no problem with pirating.

Mind you how I define legitimately might differ then how you define legitimately. Personally, I think using VPN blockers to get books from the US or UK is legitimate. If it was a paper book you could order from either of those places and have it shipped to you. So I have no moral or ethical problem with skirting geographic restrictions. If the book is available only in EPub or Mobi then strip the DRM and convert it. If I can buy the paper book at any number of bookstores I should be able to do the same with the e-book.

If those options are not available then go ahead and pirate away. That means that the author or publisher or someone has decided to not make those books available via e-book format. When the book becomes available, pay for it.

[BearMountainBooks]

Elfwreck, there are plenty of legit ways for fans who can't afford my work to get it LEGITIMATELY without paying for it. There are plenty of lending places (Lendle is just one) and Goodreads has lending clubs and so on. I'm betting you could ask a few people here on Mobielread and they probably have a lendable copy. Most of my books are available in paperback, so it's entirely possible to find a used copy. I'm not a gestapo about it people downloading for free; Why waste my time over something outside my control. It has nothing to do with not wanting "poor" readers. It has to do with the availability of a pirate copy that threatens my ability to make a living. Don't resent authors for trying to make a living. Whoever uploads a copy to a pirate site is not doing authors a favor.

Most authors make their books as available as humanly possible. My books are cheap enough that pricing should not be an issue. If you're in the US, there are at least 3 libraries with copies of my books; you can interlibrary loan them.

Books are a luxury for many, but that doesn't really excuse stealing them.

[ProfCrash]

But I don't want to read paper books any more. If the paper book is out and there is not an e-book version to buy then I might go looking for a pirated copy. I understand that that bothers authors. All I can say is put pressure on your Publisher to make to e-book available.

I will buy the e-book I want and pay for it 100% of the time when it is available.

[Katsunami]

Sometimes, a wanted format just does not exist. I have many old hardbacks and paperbacks of which there is no ebook version to be had. Instead of typing it into the computer or scanning it myself, I download it if I can find a copy. The end result is the same although someone else did the work, for whatever reason.

And sometimes, I want something and the stores, authors or publishers refuse to sell it to me, just because I live in "the wrong location". Then they can get ****, and I'll find a copy on my own, which will probably be pirated and thus for free.

[The Terminator]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

But I don't want to read paper books any more. If the paper book is out and there is not an e-book version to buy then I might go looking for a pirated copy. I understand that that bothers authors. All I can say is put pressure on your Publisher to make to e-book available.

But if you have purchased the paperback for full price and the ebook isn't available wouldn't it not be morally wrong to download the ebook?