Cutting Prices is the only way to stop piracy

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by tompe

No. The logic is that given the goal the rules are perfectly rational. And the goal was to get the effect you get for physical goods with respect to advantages for locally produced items ans so on. I think it is a bit silly for people to insist that they cannot see why the rules are rational given certain goals.

The questions if the goals good or bad is then a totally different questions that I have not expressed any opinion about.

If an item isn't made in my region, I can have it imported, and expect to pay a premium for that item, in addition to shipping charges. But the geo-restrictions on ebooks aren't "people outside of the local region pay more," they're "people outside the local region can't buy this at all." Why?

There's no limited supply. There's no danger of running out of enough for the local community. There's no risk of losing the special value of the original--we're talking BOOKS, mass-produced items, not unique crafted art projects.

Is it that the local publishers fear competition from abroad--"if you live here, you need to put up with what the local writers produce, not import that fancy stuff from overseas?" Unless, of course you want to read it on paper. THEN you can get it from overseas. It's only the pixelated version that's too fancy to import.

Feel free to explain what I'm missing. How does it improve the goal of promoting local commerce to only allow pbooks from other countries?

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

If an item isn't made in my region, I can have it imported, and expect to pay a premium for that item, in addition to shipping charges. But the geo-restrictions on ebooks aren't "people outside of the local region pay more," they're "people outside the local region can't buy this at all." Why?

There's no limited supply. There's no danger of running out of enough for the local community. There's no risk of losing the special value of the original--we're talking BOOKS, mass-produced items, not unique crafted art projects.

Is it that the local publishers fear competition from abroad--"if you live here, you need to put up with what the local writers produce, not import that fancy stuff from overseas?" Unless, of course you want to read it on paper. THEN you can get it from overseas. It's only the pixelated version that's too fancy to import.

Feel free to explain what I'm missing. How does it improve the goal of promoting local commerce to only allow pbooks from other countries?

I am one of those affected -- even though it is easy to get around those restrictions. But say we could buy normally, we would be recognized by the website. Europeans would automatically pay 30% more. Would you be happy with that?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

I am one of those affected -- even though it is easy to get around those restrictions. But say we could buy normally, we would be recognized by the website. Europeans would automatically pay 30% more. Would you be happy with that?

Well, you should certainly pay VAT. If you fail to do so, that's tax evasion, pure and simple, and, whatever the wrongs of the publisher's contract which prevent them from selling you the book, they don't (IMHO) justify tax evasion on the customer's part.

[rogue_librarian]

Actually, it's not that simple. If the value of the merchandise does not exceed 22 EUR (roughly equivalent to 31 USD or 19 GBP at this time) no further dues or import taxes will be charged when importing into the European Union. Most ebooks easily fall within that price range.

[HansTWN]

Tax is just one of the things that make up the difference. Fixed prices for books in countries like Germany another. But let us say for the sake of argument Amazon got the go ahead from the publishers to sell worldwide from its US website, but were required by the publishers to set different prices for different areas. My guess is that most people would still complain.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by rogue_librarian

Actually, it's not that simple. If the value of the merchandise does not exceed 22 EUR (roughly equivalent to 31 USD or 19 GBP at this time) no further dues or import taxes will be charged when importing into the European Union. Most ebooks easily fall within that price range.

That doesn't apply to downloads, such as music or eBooks. They are regarded as "commerce", not "products", and VAT is payable no matter how little the value. This is covered by the eCommerce VAT Directive.

[rogue_librarian]

I was actually responding to Harry's post re: tax evasion. Also, fixed book prices don't apply to non-German books (as far as Germany is concerned).

... but were required by the publishers to set different prices for different areas. My guess is that most people would still complain.

Yes, obviously. An American company decides that their product X has a sale value of Y: why should I have to pay a premium just because I'm residing in Europe? I'd pay the VAT, if reuired, grudgingly, but not a cent more. It works that way with pbooks, remember? Only we need to add the cost shipping to that, something that it not the case with digital goods.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by rogue_librarian

Actually, it's not that simple. If the value of the merchandise does not exceed 22 EUR (roughly equivalent to 31 USD or 19 GBP at this time) no further dues or import taxes will be charged when importing into the European Union. Most ebooks easily fall within that price range.

I do not believe that is true. I have tried to confirm this with custom but they only say that you pay VAT for everything. In practice there i a level under which they do not care. But that is not official or according to the laws.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by tompe

I do not believe that is true. I have tried to confirm this with custom but they only say that you pay VAT for everything. In practice there i a level under which they do not care. But that is not official or according to the laws.

There's a VAT lower limit for physical goods, but not for downloads. On those, VAT is always payable, no matter how low the value.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

There's a VAT lower limit for physical goods, but not for downloads. On those, VAT is always payable, no matter how low the value.

Do you have a reference for that? Because it seems that the rules in Sweden is that for custom there is a lower limit but that you always should pay VAT.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by tompe

Do you have a reference for that? Because it seems that the rules in Sweden is that for custom there is a lower limit but that you always should pay VAT.

I have a feeling that when you import physical goods into the UK there is a lower limit below which VAT isn't charged. That's just from memory, though; I may certainly be wrong. I'll have a look on the customs web site and see if I can find any information.

[HarryT]

Here we are:

If you order or send purchased goods other than alcohol, tobacco, perfume and toilet water from a country outside the EU then you:

• don't have to pay Excise Duty
• may have to pay Customs Duty on goods with a value that exceeds £135
• will have to pay Import VAT on goods with a value that exceeds £18

Note that on all goods from outside the EU, Customs Duty is waived if the amount of duty calculated is £9 or under.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/customs/post/buying.htm#1

[tompe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I have a feeling that when you import physical goods into the UK there is a lower limit below which VAT isn't charged. That's just from memory, though; I may certainly be wrong. I'll have a look on the customs web site and see if I can find any information.

Just read the Swedish custom information. It says no custom if the value is below 1400SEK (around 140 Euro). But that you always have to pay VAT. But as I said, there is an informal rule that if it is below 20 Euro or 50 Euro (people give different amount) then a package usually just is sent through without any custom or VAT. But that is not a hard rule and every package can get stuck.

[Bikeridr]

In Norway, there has to be paid VAT (25%) if the purchased goods costs more than NOK 200,- (US$ 35-ish).
In addition to the VAT you have to pay the postal fee of (minimum) NOK 183,- on top of the VAT.
So, buying a merchandise costing NOK 201,- and say NOK 75,- in freight, you'll get the pleasure of paying NOK 69,- in VAT (you'll pay VAT also for the freight) plus NOK 183,- Toalling your NOK 201,- goods to NOK 453,-

If it's an electronic download (mp3, ebook, software etc.) You have to pay VAT regardless. The "upside" though, you don't have to pay the postal fee.

Here in Latvia, if obtained outside EU, it's €150,- limit. Then 22% VAT and 0,- postal fee.
Goods from within EU, the VAT from the country of origin is paid and no VAT in Latvia.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

I am one of those affected -- even though it is easy to get around those restrictions. But say we could buy normally, we would be recognized by the website. Europeans would automatically pay 30% more. Would you be happy with that?

You already pay extra for shipping costs for the physical book, if it's not directly sold in Europe.

I don't pretend to understand international finance and import/export fees; I know they exist, and a lot of people think they're useful and important. I'm not convinced, but I can at least acknowledge that a lot of business does work on those rules.

If ebooks could be exported with an additional cost, the way some physical items are, that would make a lot more sense than "you can't buy it from there, and you can't have a friend buy it for you, and you can't go to where they're selling it and buy it yourself." The idea that ebooks can't be sold to *residents* of some locations is ridiculous, and far outstrips the intent of restrictions on purchasing locations.