Cutting Prices is the only way to stop piracy

[GlennD]

It's not mystical - it's what every seller of every product on the planet does. You're not always dealing with piracy as a variable (e-goods are kind of new in that sense), but figuring out what price point gives you the highest overall profit margin is a requirement to intelligently sell a product. Sonist is 100% correct. If book sellers are ignoring basic economic principles and trying to force an artificial price, they're always going to struggle to sell books.

Hopefully we're just looking at an immature market and prices will flucuate a bit as book sellers gather sales data, and adjust prices accordingly.

[Fbone]

Originally Posted by GlennD

It's not mystical - it's what every seller of every product on the planet does. You're not always dealing with piracy as a variable (e-goods are kind of new in that sense), but figuring out what price point gives you the highest overall profit margin is a requirement to intelligently sell a product. Sonist is 100% correct. If book sellers are ignoring basic economic principles and trying to force an artificial price, they're always going to struggle to sell books.

Hopefully we're just looking at an immature market and prices will flucuate a bit as book sellers gather sales data, and adjust prices accordingly.

Ok, so what is this "price point" to which you refer?

If you have already determined prices are "artificial," then you must have a price in mind.

[kjk]

Originally Posted by Fbone

Ok, so what is this "price point" to which you refer?

If you have already determined prices are "artificial," then you must have a price in mind.

I think we all have our own price in mind

Personally, I find that convenience and access is more important than price. I use both iTunes and Amazon's music services because I find them convenient, and I can get what I want quickly, without hassles, and with some confidence the quality will be good. And I can play the music on all my devices without concern. I wish Apple hadn't gone to the variable pricing; .99 cents seemed perfect to me, but the $1.29 price on some songs hasn't deterred me much.

I feel a similar way about books-I just find Amazon's Kindle store easier to use than Apple's-and I don't have trouble reading their content on all my devices, either.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Fbone

Now all you have to do is determine this mystical price.

Should be easy enough to derive through experimentation, but I would guess it at around about the price of a second hand paperback bought mail order. That will bring in a lot of readers who aren't currently paying anything to publishers. Nobody who is used to paying those sort of prices is going to start paying full price for something they can't even sell when they've read it.

But you would need to sort out the convenience factor first. Make the legitimate download harder or more awkward to use than the unauthorised version and what you price it at won't really make any difference.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by tompe

So what? It does not invalidate the argument that it is reasonabe to pay more for faster access.

But even when there is a some form of paperback copy out there, the price is a bit high. It's higher then what the pBook can be gotten for in a most cases these days for agency eBooks.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I think that it's a very bad thing. But it's not the publisher's fault - they have no choice in the matter. If you want to blame someone, blame the author for signing a geographically-restricted contract.

But if you bought legally before geo-restrictions, isn't it illegal to then deny you access to your purchases? I would think could very well be.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by tompe

Why do you think it was 100% legally if they were not allowed to sell the book (which was the case)? If a pirate sell a book and you buy it will you complain that it is not always available from the pirate?

The publisher did not tell the store that they could not sell it outside the USA. So the sale was made. Then the publisher tells the store that the eBooks cannot be downloaded by anyone outside the USA. I do feel the publisher is at fault here. The customer did nothing wrong.


The pirate example has nothing to do with this and is in fact silly.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Piper_

Yes, that is the issue.

The problem all stems from a (crazy, imo) law that says the point of sale for a digital book is at the customer's computer.

The point of sale for a paper book is the store itself.

That is the problem. Lets use Amazon. If I lived in the UK, I could buy a pBook from the US, but not an eBook when I am using the same account sitting in the same place buying from the same site. There is no logical reason why the point of sale is different just because one product is electronic and the other is physical.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The publisher did not tell the store that they could not sell it outside the USA. So the sale was made. Then the publisher tells the store that the eBooks cannot be downloaded by anyone outside the USA. I do feel the publisher is at fault here. The customer did nothing wrong.


The pirate example has nothing to do with this and is in fact silly.

Of course it was in the contract were they could sell. But since the market was so small the publisher ignored the sellers that did not follow the contract. So I am not sure it is trivially true that the seller did not break some law.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

That is the problem. Lets use Amazon. If I lived in the UK, I could buy a pBook from the US, but not an eBook when I am using the same account sitting in the same place buying from the same site. There is no logical reason why the point of sale is different just because one product is electronic and the other is physical.

There are a lot of very logical reasons for that. For example transport cost and custom for physical goods.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by tompe

There are a lot of very logical reasons for that. For example transport cost and custom for physical goods.

So, it's the truckers' unions that are insisting on geo-restrictions, so they can get a cut of the sales?

I'm not following the logic here. If it were a matter of "our nation needs the additional income caused by ancillary charges that occur in an international sale," they could just add a few dollars (pounds, whatever) to each sale, to be distributed to some national tax office.

The issue isn't even "you can't buy some ebooks from some locations." It's that publishers are refusing to say why, or how that could change--they vaguely point to "copyright law" but don't say which part of it indicates "when you buy a digital product, your location is assumed to be the location of your bank's home office." Perhaps that's because it's not part of the law--it's a business decision publishers made with each other, a matter of private contracts, not law.

There is no bit of copyright law, in any nation, that says where a digital purchase takes place.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

There is no bit of copyright law, in any nation, that says where a digital purchase takes place.

It's not copyright law, but (at least in the EU) tax law. EU tax states that digital purchases occur at the purchaser's location.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

It's not copyright law, but (at least in the EU) tax law. EU tax states that digital purchases occur at the purchaser's location.

That's true. Even American companies are supposed to charge VAT on services bought by UK (and maybe other EU) customers. I was a customer with Easynews at the time it was brought in, they just ignored it. No action was taken against them.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

So, it's the truckers' unions that are insisting on geo-restrictions, so they can get a cut of the sales?

I'm not following the logic here. If it were a matter of "our nation needs the additional income caused by ancillary charges that occur in an international sale," they could just add a few dollars (pounds, whatever) to each sale, to be distributed to some national tax office.

No. The logic is that given the goal the rules are perfectly rational. And the goal was to get the effect you get for physical goods with respect to advantages for locally produced items ans so on. I think it is a bit silly for people to insist that they cannot see why the rules are rational given certain goals.

The questions if the goals good or bad is then a totally different questions that I have not expressed any opinion about.

[queentess]

Originally Posted by tompe

No. The logic is that given the goal the rules are perfectly rational. And the goal was to get the effect you get for physical goods with respect to advantages for locally produced items ans so on. I think it is a bit silly for people to insist that they cannot see why the rules are rational given certain goals.

The questions if the goals good or bad is then a totally different questions that I have not expressed any opinion about.

The problem is that the goal used to be rational. The system is no longer invisible to the customer. That's different with physical goods, which I can have imported. But if I'm told I cannot purchase a certain book in digital format because I reside in the wrong country -- and can't even 'import' it -- then yes, the law is outdated and needs to be addressed. When I go to an online bookseller, I just want to purchase the book!