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Old 10-24-2019, 05:49 PM   #166
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Interested in product. Does not end up engaging in sale of the product. Company doesn’t sell to someone. Lost sale.
Interested in product. Attempts to purchase product. Does not end up engaging in sale of the product since it is not available from vendor for whatever reason.. Company doesn’t sell to that person. Lost sale.

The major difference is that in every definition of a lost sale I've ever seen, an attempt to obtain the product is needed before you can call it a lost sale. Anything else is window shopping.

I love looking at information on high end cars. Am I ever going to buy a Chiron? Not in my wildest dreams. Does that mean Bugatti considers me as a lost sale?

Though I did get to see a Veyron up close and personal once.

Just for a chuckle, take a look at the 5 pages of costs for various emission control repairs on a 2014 Veyron in the attached pdf document around pages 44-48.
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File Type: pdf FOI_EBGTV08.0V16_APP_UPD_R00.PDF (735.0 KB, 176 views)
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Old 10-24-2019, 06:03 PM   #167
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The major difference is that in every definition of a lost sale I've ever seen, an attempt to obtain the product is needed before you can call it a lost sale. Anything else is window shopping.
I'd suggest reading back the last day or so of this thread, I not only link to but also quoted more expansive definitions.

Of course for the purpose of the post that started this, Jon did make an attempt to gain the goods in question. That attempt was successful. It also gained the publisher no sale.

So even using your definition limited as it is, that constitutes a lost sale.
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Old 10-24-2019, 06:59 PM   #168
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The thing I want to know is what is the lowest price point for an eBook where the extra sales make up for the lower price.
That's the hundred million dollar question. I bet all the big publishers have the answer. And....apparently...it's more than you want to pay.

The price they are choosing is VERY LIKELY the price that brings them the greatest revenue. Or close to it. Or "over time for most of the books they sell".

To not believe that is to believe that these people don't know the very most fundamental thing about their business.
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Old 10-24-2019, 07:06 PM   #169
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But one thing I know is unfair is not being able to discount or put on sale eBooks. This means that in a lot of cases, the pBook is going to cost less. That is unfair.
Buy the paper book. It has never mattered to me what hard backs cost. I have bought one from time to time when I MUST have that book now! But for the most part....I just don't like hard back books.

Now I don't like paper books at all. I vastly prefer the ebook. So I buy the ebook. I buy the ebook at whatever price they are charging without any thought to the other versions.

If I want to buy cheap books, there are plenty....more than i could ever read. Amazon has me pegged and sends my Facebook ads and email ads that have me buying books I'll spend years getting around to finally reading. They are $1 to $3 usually. Sometimes $1 for a book SET!

But, when Orson Scott Card, Tom Clancy (or rather those extending his series'), David Weber, Patterson and the like put out a new book in my favorite series....I just buy the ebook. It's WORTH MORE to me than the paper book. It's worth more to me to read "right now" than waiting for the price to come down.
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Old 10-24-2019, 07:13 PM   #170
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That's the hundred million dollar question. I bet all the big publishers have the answer. And....apparently...it's more than you want to pay.

The price they are choosing is VERY LIKELY the price that brings them the greatest revenue. Or close to it. Or "over time for most of the books they sell".

To not believe that is to believe that these people don't know the very most fundamental thing about their business.
it's almost like the price is what the market will Ursidae or something?

I dunno maybe there's a better known phrasing by people who have studied economics or something?

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Old 10-25-2019, 05:03 AM   #171
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That's the hundred million dollar question. I bet all the big publishers have the answer. And....apparently...it's more than you want to pay.

The price they are choosing is VERY LIKELY the price that brings them the greatest revenue. Or close to it. Or "over time for most of the books they sell".

To not believe that is to believe that these people don't know the very most fundamental thing about their business.
Yep, some of the proof of that is watching how the semi-indie writers prices have changed over time. The more successful ones are now very close, i.e. $6-7 verses $8-9, to the big 5 prices. Of course, you do have to do apples to apples comparisons. Some authors put out a 200 page book every couple of months rather than a couple of traditional length books every year. They tend to be more in the $3-4 range. For the most part, those $1 ebooks that some seem to think is their due are reserved for PD books, porno books and first time independent authors trying to see if they can get anyone to buy their book.

Sometimes people forget that there are two halves of the supply/demand curve. You don't make money by selling below cost. Writing good books is one of those things you can't really outsource to some cheap 3rd world country were people live on a dollar a day.
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Old 10-25-2019, 05:06 AM   #172
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it's almost like the price is what the market will Ursidae or something?

I dunno maybe there's a better known phrasing by people who have studied economics or something?
Price fixing. (Retail Price Maintenance for a less pejorative term.)

Currently eBooks from major publishers is a fixed market, as retailers cannot discount.

That is how it used to be in the UK for pBooks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_Book_Agreement

When the NBA fragmented, and was eventually ruled to be illegal, book prices fell, and sales increased.

For pBooks there was potential for negative effects from abolishing the NBA, such as pushing out smaller retailers and the free-rider effect, where someone might browse books in one bookstore but buy in another, cheaper one.

With major publisher eBooks there are no smaller retailers, the market is dominated by a few large players, because those are the only ones the publisher allow to sell their books, and free samples are available, so what are the arguments in favour of fixed pricing?

The current system has retailers effectively acting as agents for the publishers, selling for a fixed price and working on commission, rather than acting as independent operatives.

Last edited by murraypaul; 10-25-2019 at 06:14 AM.
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Old 10-25-2019, 09:12 AM   #173
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I own a Jewelry Store. To continue to beat a dead horse, if a customer comes in to have a new battery installed in their watch that is a battery sale. If I unsuccessfully attempt to sell them something else, that they have no interest in purchasing, it is not a lost sale. If they come in wanting to purchase a ring and I can not sell them what they want, that is a lost sale. Not everybody who walks into your store or website is a lost sale. You might as well claim that everyone who drove by my store, saw my sign, and did not stop is a lost sale. A sale is lost only when you are unsuccessful, for what ever reason, in closing a sale to a person who was planning on buying.
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Old 10-25-2019, 12:15 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by murraypaul View Post
Price fixing. (Retail Price Maintenance for a less pejorative term.)

Currently eBooks from major publishers is a fixed market, as retailers cannot discount.

That is how it used to be in the UK for pBooks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_Book_Agreement

When the NBA fragmented, and was eventually ruled to be illegal, book prices fell, and sales increased.

For pBooks there was potential for negative effects from abolishing the NBA, such as pushing out smaller retailers and the free-rider effect, where someone might browse books in one bookstore but buy in another, cheaper one.

With major publisher eBooks there are no smaller retailers, the market is dominated by a few large players, because those are the only ones the publisher allow to sell their books, and free samples are available, so what are the arguments in favour of fixed pricing?

The current system has retailers effectively acting as agents for the publishers, selling for a fixed price and working on commission, rather than acting as independent operatives.
Yes what could be the harm in letting a company like Amazon set whatever prices they want on ebooks which they’re more than willing to take a loss on for an indefinite period of time while the few other ebook retailers can’t afford to do this.

I can not think of a single issue that would arise from this sort of arrangement.

By the by it’s not that the publisher refuses to allow more retailers in on selling their books. It’s that other retailers have found its impossible to compete with companies and still make a profit off ebook sales.
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Old 10-25-2019, 12:32 PM   #175
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That's the hundred million dollar question. I bet all the big publishers have the answer. And....apparently...it's more than you want to pay.

The price they are choosing is VERY LIKELY the price that brings them the greatest revenue. Or close to it. Or "over time for most of the books they sell".

To not believe that is to believe that these people don't know the very most fundamental thing about their business.
I have to disagree. The big 5 are pricing the eBook based on the cost of the current pBook. And they are moving away from MMPB to tradePB so the cost of the eBook will be higher. And because there is no discounting on the eBook, the tradePB will be cheaper. They are doing this to prop up the sale of the pBook and to take advantage of those who read eBooks.

I know there will be more sales at $7.99 then at $11.99. But are those extra sales enough? That is the question.

I believe the big 5 don't know their business. If they did, they would not have gone agency in collusion with Apple.

Last edited by JSWolf; 10-25-2019 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 10-25-2019, 12:39 PM   #176
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Yes what could be the harm in letting a company like Amazon set whatever prices they want on ebooks which they’re more than willing to take a loss on for an indefinite period of time while the few other ebook retailers can’t afford to do this.

I can not think of a single issue that would arise from this sort of arrangement.

By the by it’s not that the publisher refuses to allow more retailers in on selling their books. It’s that other retailers have found its impossible to compete with companies and still make a profit off ebook sales.
Before agency pricing, there used to be a lot more smaller online eBook stores and they were doing pretty well. Some of them had a really good business model that worked very well such as Fictionwise and BooksOnBoard. I remember back before agency how a lot of MR members bought from these two stores (myself included).
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Old 10-25-2019, 12:49 PM   #177
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I do not feel that someone else should be able to tell me that I have to sell something I purchased for a specific price. I actually refuse to by merchandise from vendors that think they can dictate the retail price to me. If I want to give a someone, that has been a loyal customer for years, a discount then the loss is mine not the vendor. The vendor got the price they wanted from me. I will then sell the product for a price that I determine is fair. If I make the wrong decision on price then I am the one that suffers the consequences of my actions.
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Old 10-25-2019, 01:05 PM   #178
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Before agency pricing, there used to be a lot more smaller online eBook stores and they were doing pretty well. Some of them had a really good business model that worked very well such as Fictionwise and BooksOnBoard. I remember back before agency how a lot of MR members bought from these two stores (myself included).
It's always fascinating how people hold on to this narrative, no matter how many times it's shown to be false. Those smaller online eBook stores mostly either folded or sold themselves to a larger company before agency pricing occurred.

Apple started agency pricing in the Spring of 2010. Most of the small companies that people point to either were already out of business or had sold themselves. Agency pricing got shutdown by Judge Coe in the Summer of 2013. Amazon had 75% of the ebook market at that point.

Within a couple of years Amazon was back at 95% of the market. Guess what, once Amazon didn't have to worry about other eBook stores, they stopped caring about low prices and signed contracts with the various publishers giving them agency pricing.
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Old 10-25-2019, 01:11 PM   #179
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Yes what could be the harm in letting a company like Amazon set whatever prices they want on ebooks which they’re more than willing to take a loss on for an indefinite period of time while the few other ebook retailers can’t afford to do this.
The competition includes Google and Apple. Not exactly short on funds themselves.

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I can not think of a single issue that would arise from this sort of arrangement.
What makes books special snowflakes that can't be treated like any other good?
It applies just as much to shoes, or ketchup, or phones.

Whereas we know that fixed price arrangements lead to higher prices.
That is why they are almost always illegal, and why the eBook contracts are arranged as agency agreements, because otherwise it would be illegal price maintenance.
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Old 10-25-2019, 01:14 PM   #180
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OK this is the last I'm going to talk about lost sales in this context, since it's marginally related to the topic and between you, tiger, and me we're derailing this topic such as it is.

A person who has no interest in an item at all is not a lost sale.

A person who has interest in an item, but does not buy it is a lost sale. The reason itself doesn't matter for the context of calling it a lost sale it only matters in the context of trying to recoup that lost sale.

Now since library borrowing exists it creates a group that can have no intention to purchase, but who still acquires the book. These are still lost sales, they are just accounted for as ones which there isn't anything that could be changed.

In the post that sparked this whole back and forth, Jon would fall into a person who has interest in the item group.

One thing that has not been talked about yet. What about the person who reads a library book and likes the author so much they go and buy other books the author has written. Without the library book those sales would not have happened
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