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Old 10-24-2019, 01:51 PM   #151
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And again, it is lost sales. You literally can not create a sale from a previous non-sale (the person who borrowed instead of bought) without that sale having been lost in the first place.
If that person was never going to purchase the book in the first place, I have to wonder by what logic you consider it a lost sale. A lost sale requires a potential sale before it could be lost. Your definition would seem to leave out that requirement.

For instance, someone walks into your auto parts department and asks for a whizzimajig for a 1974 Mustang Ghia. The tech says sorry, we don't have that part in stock. That is a lost sale.

Then we have the other guy who is haunting automobile scrap yards looking for that part. That is not a lost sale since there was no intention of purchasing from your auto parts department.
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Old 10-24-2019, 01:52 PM   #152
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The publishers, like all businesses, are very well aware of price vs demand. They have all the data. They aren't having to guess.
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Old 10-24-2019, 01:57 PM   #153
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One thing I think is wrong for the library to do is have automatic borrows. The borrows should be manual and if the person misses the window to borrow, then so be it. It then means that the next person on the wait list gets it sooner.

Automatic borrowing means it gets borrowed even if the person borrowing it doesn't have time to read it. If I have 4 books out with a 3-week borrow, I doubt I'd have time for a 5th. But with automatic borrow, I get that 5th book even if I don't read it. I just leave it and eventually it goes to someone else. But in 2 days it would go to someone else instead of 3-weeks.
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Old 10-24-2019, 02:01 PM   #154
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The thing I want to know is what is the lowest price point for an eBook where the extra sales make up for the lower price.
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Old 10-24-2019, 02:16 PM   #155
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One thing I think is wrong for the library to do is have automatic borrows. The borrows should be manual and if the person misses the window to borrow, then so be it. It then means that the next person on the wait list gets it sooner.

Automatic borrowing means it gets borrowed even if the person borrowing it doesn't have time to read it. If I have 4 books out with a 3-week borrow, I doubt I'd have time for a 5th. But with automatic borrow, I get that 5th book even if I don't read it. I just leave it and eventually it goes to someone else. But in 2 days it would go to someone else instead of 3-weeks.
Kind of tough for the person who's away from the computer for a few days, or is having a power outage! That six-month hold was for nought.

I suspect that with a manual hold, most will just check out a book anyway and hope for the best, even if they're likely not to have the time. Also, and this will add up, if everyone takes advantage of the two-day window because most aren't ready to start reading a book right away, that adds two (or three, or whatever) days to the borrow. A two-weeks borrow (and my libraries are mostly two weeks) with a three-day checkout period has effectively added 20% to the borrow time.

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The thing I want to know is what is the lowest price point for an eBook where the extra sales make up for the lower price.
Price elasticity mostly doesn't work like that. Depending on the elasticity of a particular item, lowering the price might raise or lower total revenues. Obviously lowering the price will increase unit sales, but there's no guarantee that total revenues will go up (and they probably won't).

Moreover, publishers are champs at price discrimination; they maximize revenues by starting high and skimming off those buyers who'll pay a lot to get it now, and then the price will go down to get the cheaper folks who are willing to wait.

Finally, I'll bring up "fair" one more time. Fair to whom, exactly? Would cheaper ebook prices be fairer to the writer? To the publisher, who's got salaries to pay and overhead to cover? Your notion of "fair" seems really to mean "fair to me," and if you parse that, "fair to me" seems to mean, "what I think I should pay."

Last edited by issybird; 10-24-2019 at 02:19 PM.
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Old 10-24-2019, 02:26 PM   #156
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Finally, I'll bring up "fair" one more time. Fair to whom, exactly? Would cheaper ebook prices be fairer to the writer? To the publisher, who's got salaries to pay and overhead to cover? Your notion of "fair" seems really to mean "fair to me," and if you parse that, "fair to me" seems to mean, "what I think I should pay."
But one thing I know is unfair is not being able to discount or put on sale eBooks. This means that in a lot of cases, the pBook is going to cost less. That is unfair.
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Old 10-24-2019, 02:32 PM   #157
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And again it is not. We will have to agree to disagree on this one. And sure you can create sales. Make buying more enticing. One way is advertisement. You advertise a book, you create sales. Every sale that happens is new and existed as a non-sale previously. You can choose. Either let someone else pay for it for a crippled book (time limited borrow you might have to stand in line for to read) and get it from the library, or choose to pay yourself by getting your own license right now without time limits. If you can convince a future borrower waiting in line to drop out and buy outright, you created an additional sale. Not even publishers are as stubborn as you in declaring every borrow from the library as lost opportunity to create an extra sale.
So you're either willfully misinterpreting what I'm saying, or there's a language barrier. I'm not sure which.

I did not say publishers can not create sales. That would indeed be ludicrous. What I said was publishers are going to count people who only borrow books as 'lost sales' because those people could have bought the book REGARDLESS of the publisher selling to the library.

Publishers likely are as stubborn as I am on this, they just don't bother discussing it with random people on the internet.
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Old 10-24-2019, 02:49 PM   #158
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Hmmm...

1. According to library records, very few ebook loans are returned early. In point, their computer system will flag people who borrow books and return them early on a consistent basis. Very few people can churn through 5 to 10 books per week on a consistent basis. I was caught by this at one time and ended up chatting with the library IT about the effect of a 1K WPM reading speed on book consumption.
Great thanks for providing data you had left out in your initial statement. Few isn't 0 though I'll grant it's also not a large minority. It's still not a statistic which can be totally ignored.

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2. You want the number of copies? They are displayed along with the projected hold wait period. On these books, the number was from 1 to 13 -- the 13 copy had an 18 week wait time.
Yes, I want relevant data to statistics you're citing to try and make a claim. This shouldn't be shocking. So the book with the larger number of copies had a lower waiting period, this would seem to tie in to the publishers logic of wanting to restrict the copies to one to try and pressure people into buying rather than borrowing. I trust you see how including all the data makes a difference.

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3. Nor was it intended to. You seem to be saying the publishers regard any library loan as a "lost sale". To me, those wait times suggest that those people are not planning on buying the book or they would not have bothered to place the hold. After all, the wait time is displayed when you go to place the hold.
What you aren't seeing in the figures you posted, and indeed couldn't see, are the people who look at those wait times and decide to purchase the book rather than waiting. The wait times suggest that at one point the person who signed up for them was willing to wait, this can of course change at any point, we lack access to enough data to draw more of a conclusion than they were at the time of the hold willing to wait the estimated time, we don't know why, if it'll change, etc. We can draw on previous studies which suggest the longer someone has to wait for something they could otherwise obtain for a price has a tipping point, but I think that's going rather far afield in an already far afield conversation.

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You might want to read my words more closely. The library paid $40.31 more for a single copy with a limited lifetime. That is the amount over costs that would have to be made on the sales to those 5 customers allowing for whatever additional costs are associated with Overdrive or other service provider reducing that number. Are we to believe the total costs of producing and selling an ebook sold at $8.99 Cdn is $0.93 Cdn? Not to mention that when the library copy expires, the library will have to choose whether to repurchase the ebook at the same inflated price or remove it from their collection so yet another chance for profit.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say the publisher sells the licenses to the libraries at a profit for them which incorporates any costs such as overdrive, or other delivery services. The costs to produce the ebook itself are of course the same regardless of who buys it. Yes the library purchase expires, after a year or 'x' loans, or whatever the terms they have with the publisher. However it's still relatively few sales to beat the sale of the library be it 5 or 6 or 7 the number isn't anything staggering.
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Old 10-24-2019, 02:50 PM   #159
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But one thing I know is unfair is not being able to discount or put on sale eBooks. This means that in a lot of cases, the pBook is going to cost less. That is unfair.
It might cost less anyway. And you're moving the goalposts; just suppose having the pBook cheaper than the ebook maximizes revenues? Wouldn't the publisher be unfair both to the company and the author if it engaged in price-cutting that also cut revenues? And then there's the suit from the shareholders....
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Old 10-24-2019, 02:59 PM   #160
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But one thing I know is unfair is not being able to discount or put on sale eBooks. This means that in a lot of cases, the pBook is going to cost less. That is unfair.
Unfair to who again?

It seems rather unfair that a conglomerate like Amazon can afford to drive off competition by selling pbooks for dirt cheap while those competitors can't stay in business and price match.

In the context of ebooks it seems unfair especially since, for most people, they're locked in to an ecosystem with a given purchase. So Amazon sells ebooks at dirt cheap prices driving sales of their Kindle devices up for those who don't want to read on a tablet/phone/etc.
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Old 10-24-2019, 03:24 PM   #161
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So you're either willfully misinterpreting what I'm saying, or there's a language barrier. I'm not sure which.

I did not say publishers can not create sales. That would indeed be ludicrous. What I said was publishers are going to count people who only borrow books as 'lost sales' because those people could have bought the book REGARDLESS of the publisher selling to the library.

Publishers likely are as stubborn as I am on this, they just don't bother discussing it with random people on the internet.
And are we also counting people who did not check out the book from the library? After all, they also could have bought the book and very likely most of the purchases are made from that group.

As for lost sales, again the definition I have always seen and used was a lost sale is when the customer wants to make a purchase and you are not able to supply what they wanted to purchase.
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Old 10-24-2019, 03:36 PM   #162
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And are we also counting people who did not check out the book from the library? After all, they also could have bought the book and very likely most of the purchases are made from that group.

As for lost sales, again the definition I have always seen and used was a lost sale is when the customer wants to make a purchase and you are not able to supply what they wanted to purchase.

OK this is the last I'm going to talk about lost sales in this context, since it's marginally related to the topic and between you, tiger, and me we're derailing this topic such as it is.

A person who has no interest in an item at all is not a lost sale.

A person who has interest in an item, but does not buy it is a lost sale. The reason itself doesn't matter for the context of calling it a lost sale it only matters in the context of trying to recoup that lost sale.

Now since library borrowing exists it creates a group that can have no intention to purchase, but who still acquires the book. These are still lost sales, they are just accounted for as ones which there isn't anything that could be changed.

In the post that sparked this whole back and forth, Jon would fall into a person who has interest in the item group.
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Old 10-24-2019, 04:24 PM   #163
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A person who has no interest in an item at all is not a lost sale.
So anything that I may find interesting but I don't buy is a lost sale. I find lots of things interesting that I'll never buy.

I know someone who is interested in high-end cars but he'll never buy one. So are all those high-end car companies losing sales? Not a single sale is lot.
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Old 10-24-2019, 04:54 PM   #164
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So anything that I may find interesting but I don't buy is a lost sale. I find lots of things interesting that I'll never buy.

I know someone who is interested in high-end cars but he'll never buy one. So are all those high-end car companies losing sales? Not a single sale is lot.
Interested in product. Does not end up engaging in sale of the product. Company doesn’t sell to someone. Lost sale.
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Old 10-24-2019, 05:39 PM   #165
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I think I have returned every ebook I borrowed early. 14 days allowed, earliest was 3 days longest was 11 days.

I automatically put all my ebooks on hold for 30 days. Then when I want to read one, I choose one that I have moved to the front of the list on, take it off hold and usually get my turn in 1 to 4 days. This way I wont miss a borrow turn or use auto borrow. It's the equivalent of getting to the front of the shopping line and then let people go ahead of you while you wait for your spouse to come up with the milk you forgot.

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