Adequacy of EPUB?

[dickloraine]

Originally Posted by Sarmat89

The problem is that it is unrealistic to expect various software vendors to support all the features of CSS (even the simplest features like text-transform are often missing). Because they are superfluous for 90% of books here, the CSS styling should add to the book format, not define it.
For that purpose, the format should be built on a semantic basis. The only kind of span we can allow is for xml:lang attribute, for the correct hyphenation.

I shure as hell expect for example a browser to support all features it needs to render websites. I exspect Microsoft to support all the features of a docx. A bad software is bad software. Let's just only allow markdown for ebooks, we don't want to make it to hard for the poor companies wanting to make readers. That way, even I could probably write a reader

[BetterRed]

Originally Posted by HarryT

... but only in promoting your own agenda...

Wouldn't be so bad if such was apparent, it's certainly not so to little ol' moi

If you close the thread I suggest it be renamed to - Twelve Nights of Much Ado About Not Much.

BR

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by BetterRed

Wouldn't be so bad if such was apparent, it's certainly not so to little ol' moi

If you close the thread I suggest it be renamed to - Twelve Nights of Much Ado About Not Much.

BR

How about "Much Ado About Fussing?" Or "Much Ado About Clucking?"

Spoiler:

I still want to know what the hell the real agenda is, now that we've all had our time wasted.

Hitch

[eschwartz]

Really? Everyone thinks their time was wasted?

I don't feel my time was wasted in this thread. I enjoyed every second of it -- much like the way people slow down when driving past the scene of a car crash.

...

Anyway, I'm not so sure there was an "agenda", more like an ill-informed rant. (The Vent and Rant thread is too classy to allow this kind of unprofessional, sub-par rant past it's gates.)

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Really? Everyone thinks their time was wasted?

I don't feel my time was wasted in this thread. I enjoyed every second of it -- much like the way people slow down when driving past the scene of a car crash.

...

Anyway, I'm not so sure there was an "agenda", more like an ill-informed rant. (The Vent and Rant thread is too classy to allow this kind of unprofessional, sub-par rant past it's gates.)

Well...for the purposes of argument (the car wreck), I suppose not. However, in terms of actually accomplishing something...yeah. Of course, I should try to remember that fracking off from time to time is good for me. :-)

Troo, dat this didn't rise to the standards for the V&R.

Hitch

[Sarmat89]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Answer the damned question: which are these reading applications you're using that won't open the file?

In case you missed my previous post: CoolReader 3.

and you clearly have no interest in having a serious discussion

Excuse me, we are discussing a new potential format here, and not my readers. I listed the potential goals and the reasoning behind it, but you are trying to insert veiled insults instead of responding on the topic.

Originally Posted by dickloraine

Let's just only allow markdown for ebooks, we don't want to make it to hard for the poor companies wanting to make readers.

The purpose of E-book format is to provide the user with a predictable experience. That means we cannot rely on unpredictable things like browser-compatible layout and full CSS support. The books are simple things and should be done in a simple way.

Originally Posted by RbnJrg

you said that none of your "multiple readers" could open the Jellby's epub

I've never said anything like this. I said none of the readers could display the poem as ADE did (or FF EPUB plugin, which is irrelevant to my devices). Some of the readers failed to open the file, the others did not.

Originally Posted by RbnJrg

But CoolReader CAN OPEN that epub!!!

Both desktop and Android versions failed to load the file. The file was taken from the corresponding post in the workshop section and has the id urn:uuid:1a16ce38-82bd-4e9b-861e-773c2e787a50.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Sarmat89

The purpose of E-book format is to provide the user with a predictable experience. That means we cannot rely on unpredictable things like browser-compatible layout and full CSS support. The books are simple things and should be done in a simple way.

How is your proposed format a predictable experience, if you still cannot explain to us what the specs are for your proposed format?

I've never said anything like this. I said none of the readers could display the poem as ADE did (or FF EPUB plugin, which is irrelevant to my devices). Some of the readers failed to open the file, the others did not.

And I asked, which other readers? So far, you have named only Coolreader, and been very vague about what the other ones are.

Once again:

Originally Posted by eschwartz

You said it doesn't work in multiple ereaders. What are the other ones that you say failed?

Regarding Coolreader itself, how interesting.

I assume RbnJrg means that CoolReader is breaking the EPUB in question by defining nonstandard custom CSS.

I am very ashamed of you, for complaining about the lack of EPUB standardization and then using a non-standard app to try to prove your claim.

[Sarmat89]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

How is your proposed format a predictable experience, if you still cannot explain to us what the specs are for your proposed format?

I thought I was explicit about the staples:
- OpenContainer Format
- XML-based metadata with specific, machine-readable format for genres, keywords, series, contributors, with predefined contributor roles applicable for the illustrated books.
- XML-based semantic markup for the book texts, with CSS support but no generic elements such as <span> and <div>. There is a hierarchic section structure for books, chapters, prefaces, forewords, etc. All formatting such as italic and headings is done by specific elements. There is native support for footnotes, endnotes, images as out-of-text, in-text, in-line. There are semantic classes for dedications, epigraphs, poems, scenic directions, quotations, messages, etc. There is an automated TOC building with the possibility of customization.
- All not essential features like fonts, paragraph indents, drop caps are not supported and should be provided by the reader app or optional CSS.

And I asked, which other readers?

Coolreader desktop, Coolreader Linux (on a device), and Coolreader for Android.
Do you need a list of those that had loaded the file but shew the poem wrong too?

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Sarmat89

I thought I was explicit about the staples:
- OpenContainer Format

EPUB

- XML-based metadata with specific, machine-readable format for genres, keywords, series, contributors, with predefined contributor roles applicable for the illustrated books.

Not under the control of the format, go bother the Dublin Core folks. Or, violate the DC, and include it anyway.
EPUB uses XML metadata already, and the format does not stop you from using series.

Oh, and keywords/genres are already available.

- XML-based semantic markup for the book texts, with CSS support but no generic elements such as <span> and <div>. There is a hierarchic section structure for books, chapters, prefaces, forewords, etc. All formatting such as italic and headings is done by specific elements. There is native support for footnotes, endnotes, images as out-of-text, in-text, in-line. There are semantic classes for dedications, epigraphs, poems, scenic directions, quotations, messages, etc. There is an automated TOC building with the possibility of customization.
- All not essential features like fonts, paragraph indents, drop caps are not supported and should be provided by the reader app or optional CSS.

See, now this is exactly the problem. You have loosely-defined "non-essential features", so no one really understands what your proposed format offers.
And the few things you have specified, are all things that everyone else here explicitly feels are crucial for ebooks.

And then you tell me that they should be provided by "optional CSS"... what, precisely, do you think we are all already doing, with EPUB?

Coolreader desktop, Coolreader Linux (on a device), and Coolreader for Android.
Do you need a list of those that had loaded the file but shew the poem wrong too?

So, still just Coolreader.
And you keep on ignoring the part where I specifically asked you for *all* the other devices, that implies I am interested in all your claims, not just the ereader that you claimed wouldn't load the file at all.

In other words:
Yes, and whatever possessed you to think there even might be a marginal chance that I wouldn't want them?

[dickloraine]

Originally Posted by Sarmat89

The purpose of E-book format is to provide the user with a predictable experience. That means we cannot rely on unpredictable things like browser-compatible layout and full CSS support. The books are simple things and should be done in a simple way.

You see, here lies the foundation of the problems. "The books" are not simple things. Maybe "most" fiction books are. But many books aren't. You need to allow a possibility to handle that. And if you have that, horrible books would still be made. You seem to have the assumption, that your format somehow prevents bad books. I very much doubt that. What you describe is simply good layout. And some people do this, some don't. You won't change that with a different format.

And I am speechless that your "multiple" readers are all the same, just on different platforms...

[Hitch]

@eschwartz, @gang:




Hitch

[BetterRed]

Originally Posted by Hitch

@eschwartz, @gang:




Hitch

This one still has a bit of life in it Flogging A Dead Horse

BR

[RbnJrg]

Originally Posted by Sarmat89

Both desktop and Android versions failed to load the file. The file was taken from the corresponding post in the workshop section and has the id urn:uuid:1a16ce38-82bd-4e9b-861e-773c2e787a50.

If you (or any in this site) download the last version of CoolReader from here (version cr3-win32-qt-opengl-3.3.61) and install that program on Windows 7 (not WinXP), then it will be possible to open (and read) without problem the Jellby's epub. Repeat, that experiment can be done for anyone in this site and then to comprobe that CoolReader CAN OPEN the epub. So, are not true your afirmations about ONLY ADE can read that epub (as I said in a previous post, Readium, EPUBReader, Azardi, Kobo, PocketBook Reader, Gitden, Mantano, etc., etc. can read without issue the ebook) and that CoolReader CAN'T OPEN it either. What CoolReader can't do is to display properly the "mouse tail" poem (it could do it, but it's necessary to work with css files inside the "css" CoolReader's folder), but that is a fail of CoolReader (the Jellby's ebook is perfectly designed) a non-standard epub reader.

[phillipgessert]

Aren't most of OP's semantic concerns covered by epub:type? Or have I got my head on wrong about those sorts of semantics?

[Sarmat89]

Originally Posted by RbnJrg

If you (or any in this site) download the last version of CoolReader from here (version cr3-win32-qt-opengl-3.3.61) and install that program on Windows 7 (not WinXP), then it will be possible to open (and read) without problem the Jellby's epub.

A little investigation shew that that EPUB misses 'mimetype' file. After repacking it properly, Coolreader opens the file but shows the part as FBReader, MoonReader and AlReader: in the single paragraph, with &O; and such unexpanded.

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/att...3&d=1241990005