Amazon's own ebook format

[barryem]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

Amazon already allows you to "loan" your eBook to any other Amazon customer. It lasts for 2 weeks during which you may not read it while they finish the eBook. Most publishers allow the "loan" but a few do not.

Thus, there is really no reason to skirt the copyright laws at all.

Actually most books can't be loaned this way. At least not most of the books I read. A few can be. Hence there is a reason. Or would be if I didn't have a spare Kindle.

Barry

[barryem]

Originally Posted by whitearrow

Or maybe we can stop using the RIAA's and MPAA's preferred "maximize the evil" terminology and call it what it is, precisely -- copyright infringement, which US law treats as a civil tort in most cases. Pirates kill people, take hostages, and commit extortion. It's not exactly the same thing.

Actually the term "pirate" was used in this way long before there was digital media and an RIAA and MPAA involvement. I first heard the term with regard to selling copied cassette tapes sometime around 1960 or 1970. And I don't think it was a new term even then.

Barry

[Yapyap]

Originally Posted by barryem

Actually most books can't be loaned this way. At least not most of the books I read. A few can be. Hence there is a reason. Or would be if I didn't have a spare Kindle.

Barry

And if you're not American, none of the books are lendable.

Regarding lawfulness and selfishness... I can see a number of scenarios here, and I do have to wonder.

Let's say I've bought a Kindle book and want my mother, who lives with me, to read it as well.

Scenario 1: my mother has a Kindle, we share the Amazon account. We can read the book at the same time. Publisher has lost a sale, but everything is legit. I'm a good daughter; I'm not breaking any laws.

Scenario 2: my mother has a Sony. I have bought a Kindle book, de-DRM it, convert it and share it with my mother. Publisher has lost a sale. I am a law-breaker but a good daughter.

Scenario 3: my mother has a Kindle and I have a Kindle, but we don't share an Amazon account. I pretend to be an American when buying the book; it's a rare book that can be loaned, so I lend the book to my mother. I have been a not-entirely-honest person but still worked more or less within the limits set by the existing system.

Scenario 4: my mother has a Kindle and I have a Kindle, but we don't share an Amazon account. I don't pretend to be an American when buying the book (which more likely than not means I pay considerably more for the book than an American customer would). I cannot lend it to her even if the publisher allows loans. I de-DRM my copy and give a copy to my mother. I am now a law-breaker.

Scenario 5: my mother has a Sony (or a Kindle but we don't share an Amazon account). I have bought a Kindle book. I de-DRM it for my own safekeeping and tell my mother that she can buy her own book (well, actually, I'd have to buy it for her since she couldn't afford it). I have broken the law but publishers are happy. I am a bad daughter and a law-breaker.

Seriously though - I can see the legal differences in the above-mentioned scenarios, but how are scenarios 1 & 2 or 3 & 4 different morally/ethically/practically? How does one of them not hurt the publisher/shops and the others do (again, morally, not legally)?

(Please note that all the above scenarios are hypothetical as my mother does not read books in English anyway. For full disclosure, I have given a de-DRM-d copy of a book away to two friends twice - a copy of a newly released book in a series, which both friends buy for themselves in (new, not second-hand) paperback, but I've wanted to discuss the book with them immediately, not six months later. Neither of them would have bought the book on release anyway, neither in ebook nor in hardback, so my doing so did not result in a lost sale. This, no doubt, makes me a really bad person, in addition to making me a law-breaker, which I am anyway, what with all the DRM-removal and backup-copy-making for my own purposes.)

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

Amazon already allows you to "loan" your eBook to any other Amazon customer.

Can you tell me, please, how I can lend a book to someone, sirmaru, or is this another one of your wild generalisations that what people in the US can do, can be done by everyone?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by barryem

Actually the term "pirate" was used in this way long before there was digital media and an RIAA and MPAA involvement. I first heard the term with regard to selling copied cassette tapes sometime around 1960 or 1970. And I don't think it was a new term even then.

Barry

The term "piracy" has been used in association with illegal copying of books for over 400 years. Its first recorded use in this context was by the English author Thomas Dekker who, in the introduction to his 1603 book, "The Wonderful Yeare", said:

Banish these Word-pirates, (you sacred mistresses of learning) into the gulfe of Barbarisme: doome them euerlastingly to liue among dunces: let them not once lick their lips at the Thespian bowle, but onely be glad (and thanke Apollo for it too) if hereafter (as hitherto they haue alwayes) they may quench their poeticall thirst with small beere.

which is a sentiment that I'm sure we can all share.

[soulfuldog]

Originally Posted by Yapyap

And if you're not American, none of the books are lendable.

Regarding lawfulness and selfishness... I can see a number of scenarios here, and I do have to wonder.

Let's say I've bought a Kindle book and want my mother, who lives with me, to read it as well. <snip various scenarios>

Perfect examples, and why I wish Amazon would introduce some kind of ebook lending. I share my Amazon account with my Mum for her ease of use, but we only rarely share ebooks since we don't really have the same tastes. I've 'shared' a few ebooks with an uncle though. A very specific range of titles we both share an interest in, if they'd been physical books we'd swap them between us, and to an extent we do the same with ebooks. The only difference is while the physical book would be passed on to someone else or donated to a charity shop, church sale etc, the ebook doesn't go any further. It's wrong but we do share occasionally....

[sirmaru]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Can you tell me, please, how I can lend a book to someone, sirmaru, or is this another one of your wild generalisations that what people in the US can do, can be done by everyone?

You must be an American resident to loan or borrow an eBook.

I posted the exact link to the instructions above in this thread. Here are the EXACT instructions again:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/custom...594&sr=1-1-acs

My relatives all read fiction so my history eBooks would not interest them.

I never have understood why things are different for American residents over residents of other nations. Some folks have noted in this Forum that prices of eBooks can be higher overseas as well. Its the same with some of the special offers.

Maybe you should buy a vacation home in Florida and then you, too, could qualify for all these benefits. Lots of British subjects do own vacation homes in Florida. Maybe you could buy one in partnership with others.

My son lives permanently in London but also has a home in the US. I'm not sure how the Amazon rules affect him. Can dual residents benefit from offers to US residents?

Right now an eBook can only be lent once. I think Amazon should expand that loaning service to discourage DRM removal practices. In fact that lending service is not even publicized too well. I doubt if most folks even know about it or how to use it.

Its also a good way to INCREASE eBook sales. The borrower can only keep the eBook for TWO WEEKS. If he is unable to finish the eBook, he is probably an excellent prospect to buy the eBook just to complete it. Remember, the eBook can only be lent ONCE.

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

Most publishers allow the "loan" but a few do not.

That should read, many self publishers, some small publishers and almost no major publishers allow loaning (in the US).

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

That should read, many self publishers, some small publishers and almost no major publishers allow loaning (in the US).

... and nobody at all outside the USA.

[ProfCrash]

Oh goodie. Now the solution to your e-reader woes is to buy a house in the US.

Yeah, that works well for folks.

Book prices are higher in other countries because of different types of taxes. Some countries have rules that require e-book prices be the same as the paper versions.

Different e-books are for sale in different countries because of how Publishing contracts are handeled, different contracts in different countries mean that Amazon can sell some books in the US because the Publisher is willing to sell through Amazon in the US but the Publisher of the same book in the UK may not be willing to sell through Amazon in the UK.

Amazon has worked out an arrangement with some Publishers in the US to allow loaning e-books, Amazon has not been able to accomplish this in outside the US.

Amazon, and Sony, BN, Kobo, are required to follow the law in each country they reside in. It is that simple. That means different prices, availability, and features based on what country you reside in. This sucks but it is a burden that any international corporation has to deal with.

There are many solutions but I doubt buying a place in Florida is one of those solutions.

[sirmaru]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

OThere are many solutions but I doubt buying a place in Florida is one of those solutions.

I haven't been out of the house in over a week due to near zero weather and lots of snow.

I can only wish I had a house in Florida. Folks are talking about a "polar vortex" where I live.

I bet there are lots of Europeans and Canadians basking in Florida sunshine now.

One of the benefits of being housebound is more time for reading eBooks.

[Waylander]

No, there are not lots of Europeans and Canadians basking in the Florida sunshine, as everyone is back at work, and I presume the bad weather is affecting flights into the US from Canada, and most British and Europeans don't have enough money to be able to afford to go to Florida anyway, and it is wrong to assume that everyone from Britain, Europe and Canada are well off, as many people have been been very hard hit by the recession. I agree with others on this thread that your sweeping generalisations are misinformed and insulting to those who know what they are talking about. When someone who has worked in computing, software development etc comments on something to do with computing or software development, then you should at least give them the courtesy of having read and taken n what they have said, rather than wilfully ignoring them, thereby implying that their knowledge is worthless. Your lack of knowledge about DRM, piracy and the internet astonishes me, but what truly amazes me is that you talk about these things as though you are an authority on them when you hardly have any knowledge to back up these fallacious claims. I now see why others on this forum become so irate and infuriated with you, and will leave it there.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I knew it!

You're the one leaving all those nonsense blog post comments (and sending spammy emails) all over the internet, aren't you?

You're busted, banana-flinger.

Oh, the shame of it all - busted

...and now for the deciphered version:

Spoiler:

I think rearranging words and punctuation around would make for some very interesting reading. Maybe we'll get a new plot twist or the story will fly off to something totally unexpected. Anyway, it'll keep one thinking.

[barryem]

Originally Posted by Yapyap

Regarding lawfulness and selfishness... I can see a number of scenarios here, and I do have to wonder.

...

Nicely done. That's pretty much what I was trying to say but I wasn't able to express it so well.

I don't rob banks because I don't want to get caught. I don't do large scale distributions of copyrighted books for reasons of conscience. But I do like to share books with friends and family and I wish I got to do it more than I do. It's really a lot more fun to read a book at the same time someone else is reading it and to have someone to discuss it with.

Publishers control the copyright laws to a great extent. The DMCA and the 1998 (I think that was the year) copyright bills were actually written by Disney's lawyers as a "favor" to Congress. Impressive generosity!

Sharing a copy of a book may be illegal but it's morally a good thing to do, in my occasionally humble opinion. Making it illegal to share a book with a friend or family member is morally repugnant. I'm not one who believes that two wrongs make a right but their actions make it pretty easy for me to feel guiltless in all this. I don't pretend that I am guiltless; just that I feel guiltless.

Barry