Defective by Design is targeting the Kindle

[carld]

Originally Posted by Patricia

Ah, but not everybody actually has a computer.
I'm thinking of local refugees, the homeless, and people on long-term state benefits (due to illness, unemployment etc).

Nor would many of those people have access to books except through libraries, which, I'm pretty sure, will continue to offer paper books. Nor is there anything saying that the cost of electronic readers won't drop in the future. In fact it's almost guaranteed that by the time ebooks begin to supplant paper the readers will be a lot cheaper.

Edit to ad: At some point a technological breakthrough that drastically reduces the cost of e-ink or a similar technology is almost inevitable. Once this happens we really will start to see a shift to ebooks, but not till then.

[gwynevans]

Originally Posted by Patricia

Ah, but not everybody actually has a computer.
I'm thinking of local refugees, the homeless, and people on long-term state benefits (due to illness, unemployment etc).

I do wonder what proportion of the latter has a plasma or lcd TV, though. In recent discussions at a local class where my wife mentioned us as having looked at a 36" tv, a significant number of the 'we've got a 40" tv' commenters were on benefits!

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by gwynevans

I do wonder what proportion of the latter has a plasma or lcd TV, though. In recent discussions at a local class where my wife mentioned us as having looked at a 36" tv, a significant number of the 'we've got a 40" tv' commenters were on benefits!

And probably most of them got their TV's from catalogues and pay-weekly schemes where they end up paying about 3x the actual price. It's all a fiction created by debt.

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by Sonist

If you don't like your e-reader, fine. Most users apparently like theirs. Sales are increasing rapidly enough, to merit notice, and to send agents and publishers on the war-path over e-rights.

You keep making statements about what YOU need (cheap, color, movies, annotations, etc)...

Last I'll reply to you on these as we are for sure.

I love my ereader. And I agree it will be a big success in a niche market and make big bucks for Amazon and other companies.

You just seem convinced that ereaders that are just like the Kindle or Sony 505 are going to take off and be owned by as many people that own iPods or other types of mp3 players.

That's just not going to happen. Too few people are avid readers that read enough to warrant owning one. Most everyone (especially in say the 30 and under generations) listens to music enough to want an mp3 player.

Also some people on the last page were saying this is tied to class and education. Not really. I'm finishing a Ph D this semester--all of my friends and acquaintances have master's or Ph D's (or are close to getting one or the other). Only 3 or 4 I can think of (out of say 30 people) are anything like what I'd call an avid leisure reader. And this is among highly educated younger folk who are big into tech gadgets.

I'm the only one that has an ereader, but every single one of them has at least one mp3 player. I've showed my ereader to several of them, the non-readers thought it was neat but overpriced since they don't read much. The 2 avid readers who've seen it said they thought it was cool but they wouldn't like as they love curling up with a "real" book.

So yes, I see it as a niche item, albeit a large and profitable niche that isn't going anywhere. I don't see it ever being like an mp3 player where everyone I know will own one or more of them. Now this is where the multifunction device comes in...

You keep making statements about what YOU need (cheap, color, movies, annotations, etc)...

I don't need that stuff--wouldn't have bought a Kindle 1 otherwise.

What I'm saying is something like that is how you may get a device that's a good ereader in the hands of non-avid readers. They buy it for the other features, and maybe by an ebook every once in a while just like they may buy a best seller once or twice a year currently. The iPhone doesn't count as it's not good to read on--or do much of anything on IMO, as the screen is too small and the touch interface not ideal for typing etc.

Same with the people wedded to "real" books. Some are too stubborn to ever buy something like a kindle. But if they're e-ink tablet PC or whatever the device is does ebooks and comes with samples maybe some will be swayed.

So I'm just saying a device like that would open the doors to a bigger market than a pure ebook reader which of course can only sell to avid readers.

But sure, I'd like something like that. It would be great for travel--but we're a long ways off probably from having something that can do all that stuff and have a screen that's great for reading like e-ink is.

[astra]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

If we want literacy, the adoption of computers and e-reading devices, how do we reach these people who have no money at all? Technology should benefit all, in my understanding, not just those who can afford it.

I have been following your posts and agreed with most of things you said, however, I cannot agree with this one.

Ebook Reader is a luxury. It is not a necessity. If someone cannot afford to buy ebook reader it doesn't mean all doors for self-education or entertainment are closed for them. Only two years ago I didn't have ebook reader and I was perfectly fine by reading books I bought on Amazon or in second-hand book shops. Second hand book-shops have an amazing variety of books and very often they costs peanuts, starting from 25p and up to £3 in some posh second-hand shops.
I also have noticed that sometimes many of the so called poor people do have things I cannot afford or judge them overpriced. Like iphone, huge TV screens. They might not have money to pay for rent but they absolutely must have the best mobile phone.
So...

[Patricia]

Originally Posted by gwynevans

I do wonder what proportion of the latter has a plasma or lcd TV, though. In recent discussions at a local class where my wife mentioned us as having looked at a 36" tv, a significant number of the 'we've got a 40" tv' commenters were on benefits!

There's a passage somewhere is George Orwell's The Road to Wigan Pier, which is relevant here.

"Trade since the war has had to adjust itself to meet the demands of underpaid, underfed people, with the result that a luxury is nowadays almost always cheaper than a necessity. One pair of plain solid shoes costs as much as two ultra-smart pairs. For the price of one square meal you can get two pounds of cheap sweets. You can’t get much meat for threepence, but you can get a lot of fish-and-chips. Milk costs threepence a pint and even ‘mild’ beer costs fourpence, but aspirins are seven a penny and you can wring forty cups of tea out of a quarter-pound packet. And above all there is gambling, the cheapest of all luxuries. Even people on the verge of starvation can buy a few days’ hope (‘Something to live for’, as they call it) by having a penny on a sweepstake. Organized gambling has now risen almost to the status of a major industry. Consider, for instance, a phenomenon like the Football Pools, with a turnover of about six million pounds a year, almost all of it from the pockets of working-class people. I happened to be in Yorkshire when Hitler re-occupied the Rhineland. Hitler, Locarno, Fascism, and the threat of war aroused hardly a flicker of interest locally, but the decision of the Football Association to stop publishing their fixtures in advance (this was an attempt to quell the Football Pools) flung all Yorkshire into a storm of fury. And then there is the queer spectacle of modern electrical science showering miracles upon people with empty bellies. You may shiver all night for lack of bedclothes, but in the morning you can go to the public library and read the news that has been telegraphed for your benefit from San Francisco and Singapore. Twenty million people are underfed but literally everyone in England has access to a radio. What we have lost in food we have gained in electricity. Whole sections of the working class who have been plundered of all they really need are being compensated, in part, by cheap luxuries which mitigate the surface of life."

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Patricia

There's a passage somewhere is George Orwell's The Road to Wigan Pier, which is relevant here.

"Trade since the war has had to adjust itself to meet the demands of underpaid, underfed people, with the result that a luxury is nowadays almost always cheaper than a necessity. One pair of plain solid shoes costs as much as two ultra-smart pairs. For the price of one square meal you can get two pounds of cheap sweets. You can’t get much meat for threepence, but you can get a lot of fish-and-chips. Milk costs threepence a pint and even ‘mild’ beer costs fourpence, but aspirins are seven a penny and you can wring forty cups of tea out of a quarter-pound packet. And above all there is gambling, the cheapest of all luxuries. Even people on the verge of starvation can buy a few days’ hope (‘Something to live for’, as they call it) by having a penny on a sweepstake. Organized gambling has now risen almost to the status of a major industry. Consider, for instance, a phenomenon like the Football Pools, with a turnover of about six million pounds a year, almost all of it from the pockets of working-class people. I happened to be in Yorkshire when Hitler re-occupied the Rhineland. Hitler, Locarno, Fascism, and the threat of war aroused hardly a flicker of interest locally, but the decision of the Football Association to stop publishing their fixtures in advance (this was an attempt to quell the Football Pools) flung all Yorkshire into a storm of fury. And then there is the queer spectacle of modern electrical science showering miracles upon people with empty bellies. You may shiver all night for lack of bedclothes, but in the morning you can go to the public library and read the news that has been telegraphed for your benefit from San Francisco and Singapore. Twenty million people are underfed but literally everyone in England has access to a radio. What we have lost in food we have gained in electricity. Whole sections of the working class who have been plundered of all they really need are being compensated, in part, by cheap luxuries which mitigate the surface of life."

Brilliant book, brilliant quote, and it really strikes home.

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

... This is my concern with ereaders, the price of entry is far too costly for anyone who can barely scrape by as it is. ... Hundreds of years of campaigning for widespread literacy will be lost in a generation or two....

Wow, this thread is becoming somewhat bizarre.

O.K., we get it, you live in a really tough neighborhood, where most can't afford iPod Touch, or an e-reader, or apparently a packet of cigarettes. I get it. I don't come from money, either, and I've lived in some pretty rough places during my life.

But you do realize, that most people in the world don't have many of the things those in your neighborhood have, such as solid roofs over their heads, indoor plumbing, free education, or taxpayers providing for those things.

In fact, $350 is indeed a "huge" amount for most people in Eastern Europe and Russia, where many work for significantly less, than what the "people in your neighborhood" get as unemployed. (And there is a good chance, that the "Polish Plumber," even if "poor" by UK standards, actually reads, and manages to do so without an e-reader.)

Then we can move to to the really, really poor countries of the world, some war-torn, with people for whom "your neighborhood" would be the dream of a lifetime.

But what does all this chest-beating, have to do with whether e-readers will begin replacing p-books, at some point, obviously first in the places where most of the participants in this forum live? Or with DRM? What's the point?

[RWJ]

Originally Posted by Patricia

"Trade since the war has had to adjust itself to meet the demands of underpaid, underfed people, with the result that a luxury is nowadays almost always cheaper than a necessity. One pair of plain solid shoes costs as much as two ultra-smart pairs. ..."

The broader point, that people who feel marginalized, unhappy or frustrated tend to make dumb spending choices to feel better, is a valid one. The world today just isn't like the world Orwell describes, though. "Underpaid" is a relative term, but "underfed"? The English speaking world suffers from mass obesity, not lack of food. And luxuries don't, in any meaningful sense, cost more than necessities. People buy prepackaged food for convenience, but it is far more expensive than making your own, and less healthy (hence in part obesity.) Compare the cost of a frozen lasagna, a bag of pre-washed and chopped lettuce, a bottle of vinaigrette and a Sara Lee cake: it's about three times what you'd spend on the ingredients to make your own three course dinner, which wouldn't be loaded with salt, sugar and preservatives.

In all kinds of other ways, people make similar trade-offs between effort and expenditure. A dollar store will provide endless craft supplies for children to entertain themselves with, and a library vast numbers of children's books, but these take time and effort and supervision, so most people buy a PSP or a Wii, spend a fortune on it, but take the easier way out. (Again, obesity results from kids spending most of their waking hours sitting on their butts.)

As for shoes? I just bought myself, at a discount department store, some very comfortable and sensible off-label shoes. They're durable, based on other things of the store label's lines that I've bought, and they cost $40. Amalfis and Ferragamos (Jimmy Choo and Louboutin are so arriviste) cost more than a 505.

People make choices. Unless they're robots, they have the ability to make better choices. I've never been comfortable with the disenfranchisement of the poor that accompanies the worldview that portrays them as powerless victims of impersonal forces.

But what does all this chest-beating, have to do with whether e-readers will begin replacing p-books, at some point, obviously first in the places where most of the participants in this forum live? Or with DRM? What's the point?

Erm, if you insist on a connection ...
What this has to do with the "tipping point" and ubiquity of e-readers is how people prioritize the ability to do the things that you can do with a dedicated reader. Even in the poorer sections of the west, people have discretionary income. All of us bought readers when the price of the reader seemed like a good use for that chunk of our entertainment or discretionary budgets. The question is, are there enough readers, of anything that can be read on a reader (ie web content, not just bound paper books) who find that to be a good use of their entertainment dollars, which are probably more scarce now than they used to be. I think if readers drop below $100 and DRM is easy to reconcile, they'll take off. For all the talk about multi-hundred-dollar mp3 players, I bought a generic $20 mp3 player about the size of a quarter to wear running. I would never have spent hundreds on one no matter how cool, or how many other features it had, because it's just not worth it to me. For $20? Sure. I suspect lots of people out there feel about reading as I felt about music: not for $350, plus books that cost almost as much as on paper, but if the device gets cheap enough, and the content cheap and good enough, it'll do beautifully at a mass level.

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by RWJ

... I think if readers drop below $100 and DRM is easy to reconcile, they'll take off....

I have never disagreed with this. I have always qualified my statements with "at some point" and "cheap" and "better." But this is generally the case with all technology, from hard drives, to CDs and DVDs, to mp3 players.

But I should state the obvious, that $100 may be the tipping point in certain parts of the world, while in others, $20 would still be too much. Technically, if we expand this argument, one can claim, that indoor toilets are still a "niche" item in many parts of the world. This was my point, when I asked, what's the point with all the "in my neighborhood" chest-beating.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Sonist

I have never disagreed with this. I have always qualified my statements with "at some point" and "cheap" and "better." But this is generally the case with all technology, from hard drives, to CDs and DVDs, to mp3 players.

But I should state the obvious, that $100 may be the tipping point in certain parts of the world, while in others, $20 would still be too much. Technically, if we expand this argument, one can claim, that indoor toilets are still a "niche" item in many parts of the world. This was my point, when I asked, what's the point with all the "in my neighborhood" chest-beating.

Christ, this gets more annoying with every passing statement you make. The original argument started over an assertion that the e-book reader was a 'niche' product, you're the one who got insulting and pompous, you're the one who trolled for reaction, you're the one who keeps ressurrecting it like some child who can't get their way.

Here, I'll explain it with a picture (first year sales of each device) :



It's a 'niche' item. It serves a particular need, a very singular item that does one thing well. I was, and am still arguing, that the dedicated e-reader will not become a truly mass market item, and instead the function it performs now will be folded into a more convergent device in the future. I further, and am still arguing, that once it does become merged, e-book sales will take off far more than they will when they're predicated on the owning of a single device to facilitate their use. That's it, I'm done.

Mods, is there any way I can block a user? Anything? Pretty please.

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by RWJ

What this has to do with the "tipping point" and ubiquity of e-readers is how people prioritize the ability to do the things that you can do with a dedicated reader.

And that's also where the multi function thing comes in. Increase the "things you can do" with a device and it becomes a better value at a given price.

Someone may not be willing to pay $350, or $200 or even $100 for a dedicated reader. But have a multifunction device that's just as good at reading but also does other things they do more like web, email, video or whatever an you'll sell more and even non-avid reader will start buying some ebooks since it's so easy to do on their device that the mainly use for web or whatever.

You hit a tipping point where the functions and price appeal to more people. That's the future 5, 10, 15 years down the road. I think there will be some multifunction tablet device that most people have and use in place of laptops, ereaders, portable video players, pdas etc. Likely will even be used by students in lieu of text books etc.

Right now the only tipping point is price. For each person who reads enough to even think about an ereader, there's a tipping point where the price is right for them. The market will expand as prices drop due to that.

But to expand beyond added readers on a large scale, it will take more than price drops. It will take integrated devices that do more than just books.

Originally Posted by Moejoe

It's a 'niche' item. It serves a particular need, a very singular item that does one thing well. I was, and am still arguing, that the dedicated e-reader will not become a truly mass market item, and instead the function it performs now will be folded into a more convergent device in the future. I further, and am still arguing, that once it does become merged, e-book sales will take off far more than they will when they're predicated on the owning of a single device to facilitate their use.

Exactly. Dedicated ereaders will make lot of money and keep expanding among the avid reader base. But they can't become mass market until their folded into something else.

Hopefully that something will have screens as good for reading as these, so both us current ebook enthusiasts are pleased, as well as people who buy them mainly for the other functions.

[Patricia]

Gentlemen: Patricia has just put her moderator's hat on, and wishes to remind you that a polite and civil discussion is more likely to be productive than one featuring personal comments, surmises about the other person's motives, and ill-humour. (Patricia removes hat.)

Returning to the topic, there does seem to be two camps when it comes to reading devices. One believes that a dedicated device works better than a multi-purpose one. The other believes the contrary.
My (purely anecdotal) impression is that younger people prefer the flexibility of multi-purpose devices, while (often) older people prefer a specialist reading device. However, I may be getting an inaccurate impression...

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Patricia

Gentlemen: Patricia has just put her moderator's hat on, and wishes to remind you that a polite and civil discussion is more likely to be productive than one featuring personal comments, surmises about the other person's motives, and ill-humour. (Patricia removes hat.)

Returning to the topic, there does seem to be two camps when it comes to reading devices. One believes that a dedicated device works better than a multi-purpose one. The other believes the contrary.
My (purely anecdotal) impression is that younger people prefer the flexibility of multi-purpose devices, while (often) older people prefer a specialist reading device. However, I may be getting an inaccurate impression...

Yes, I apologise for my earlier name-calling, it was a highly childish reaction and was turning this discussion into a slanging match. Sorry.

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by Patricia

Returning to the topic, there does seem to be two camps when it comes to reading devices. One believes that a dedicated device works better than a multi-purpose one. The other believes the contrary.
My (purely anecdotal) impression is that younger people prefer the flexibility of multi-purpose devices, while (often) older people prefer a specialist reading device. However, I may be getting an inaccurate impression...

I don't know if a multifunction device will work better (it currently couldn't as e-ink is the best for reading but can't handle full net browsing etc.).

I just think that it would sell much better and get more people buying ebooks, since a dedicated reader only appeals to avid readers. Which is a smaller market that people who are buy devices to listen to music, watch movies, surf the web, send e-mail etc. etc. So if you can put them all into one device where everything works well then that will appeal to a larger market and more than just people who read a ton.

But dedicated ereaders are the present and they'll continue doing well and selling well to avid readers for several years. They're just not going to sell like dedicated mp3 players as more people listen to music all the time than read all the time, especially among the younger tech savy crowd.

But you could sell that crowd a few ebooks if some portable gadget they bought to websurf etc. could also read books. So that's where I see an advantage of a multifunction device in terms of spreading the ebook market.

Currently I wouldn't want one as backlit LCD screens etc. that are good for the net, videos etc. are hard on my eyes, so I'll stick with my dedicated reader.

But down the road, I'd love something with a screen just as good (or better) for reading than e-ink that could also do full featured web, video, games etc. Such a device would be a dream for traveling! Could just take it instead of having kindle and mp3 player and laptop and dvds and Nintendo DS etc.