Defective by Design is targeting the Kindle

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Good. Now lets see if it explodes like the iPod did....

Dude, what's up with this? Did you short Amazon or something?

I wanted to check your "nobody reads, the culture has changed" statement, so I did a quick search (electronic, not paper.) Came up with this survey, titled "Fiction Reading Increases for Adults," comparing American reading habits since '82:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/12/books/12reading.html

It appears that readership fluctuates. Now take population expansion into consideration, and you'll likely end-up with net gain of readers.

If you don't like your e-reader, fine. Most users apparently like theirs. Sales are increasing rapidly enough, to merit notice, and to send agents and publishers on the war-path over e-rights.

You keep making statements about what YOU need (cheap, color, movies, annotations, etc..) Frankly, nobody really cares. What matters is that there is demand, and there appears to be a market trend toward e-readers. A lot of hardware seems to be coming out soon, some from major players. The sales projections are impressive. Niche or not, it seems to be coming. And this is all that matters to the world at large.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

I know I'm seriously re-considering my lust for a dedicated e-reader after using the iTouch and Stanza for awhile. The Txtr is still attractive to me, but the iTouch has rapidly become my most used electronic device, and I've actually been reading more since I started using it.

Apple does not sell any device named iTouch. They do however sell one called the iPod Touch.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Sonist

Dude, what's up with this? Did you short Amazon or something?

I wanted to check your "nobody reads, the culture has changed" statement, so I did a quick search (electronic, not paper.) Came up with this survey, titled "Fiction Reading Increases for Adults," comparing American reading habits since '82:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/12/books/12reading.html

It appears that readership fluctuates. Now take population expansion into consideration, and you'll likely end-up with net gain of readers.

If you don't like your e-reader, fine. Most users apparently like theirs. Sales are increasing rapidly enough, to merit notice, and to send agents and publishers on the war-path over e-rights.

You keep making statements about what YOU need (cheap, color, movies, annotations, etc..) Frankly, nobody really cares. What matters is that there is demand, and there appears to be a market trend toward e-readers. A lot of hardware seems to be coming out soon, some from major players. The sales projections are impressive. Niche or not, it seems to be coming. And this is all that matters to the world at large.

The report you linked to counts 'online reading' as part of the overall statistics and states (from the article)

The proportion of adults reading some kind of so-called literary work — just over half — is still not as high as it was in 1982 or 1992, and the proportion of adults reading poetry and drama continued to decline.

and goes on further to state that

In each survey since 1982 the data did not differentiate between those who read several books a month and those who read only one poem. Nor did the surveys distinguish between those who read the complete works of Proust or Dickens and those who read one Nora Roberts novel or a single piece of fan fiction on the Internet.

I'm in no way surprised that reading has increased, if you take into account 'online' reading as part of the statistics, but it in no way gives merit to your persistance of view that the e-reader is anything but a niche product, or that overall reading has increased to a point where the e-reader becomes a must-have product as the Mp3 player has become in modern society. And I go back to the article, which is a mixed bag at best and proves very little, apart from the fact that nobody really knows and quote the Michigan Professor -

The rise could just as easily be attributed to changes in health care or a need for escape in difficult economic times, she said.

How about we stop using the word 'niche' because it seems to offend you so much (as your pompous disregard of money offends me and mine) and we use something, let's say, more honest. Let's say that the e-reader has a 'limited market' or maybe even a 'specialised market'.

What nobody has even mentioned, but I think has to be addressed, is the issue of digital segragation that these e-readers might create. If you're completely correct in your assumptions then it means only those who can afford the devices will have access to digital books. This cuts a vast swathe of the population, and those who might benefit the most, out of the game. Whereas a lending library gave access to all, the barrier of owning an expensive device, cuts out those who can't afford it. Reading becomes the privilidge of the rich once again, and the poor, as usual get it in the knackers. Of course, this assumes that the lending library goes 'full' digital and doesn't stay with paper for a long time to come. But even if it does not, there's a vast part of the population that won't have access to what could be a defining technology that increases literacy because of a cash barrier.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Apple does not sell any device named iTouch. They do however sell one called the iPod Touch.

I'll clarify, if I must Me and mine call the iPod Touch and iPhone - iTouch, it's shorthand, nothing more.

[RWJ]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

What nobody has even mentioned, but I think has to be addressed, is the issue of digital segragation that these e-readers might create. If you're completely correct in your assumptions then it means only those who can afford the devices will have access to digital books. This cuts a vast swathe of the population, and those who might benefit the most, out of the game.

Not necessarily - they could read ebooks on their computers, as many people here did before they bought their readers, and as many people here, for that matter, still do.

[Patricia]

Originally Posted by RWJ

Not necessarily - they could read ebooks on their computers, as many people here did before they bought their readers, and as many people here, for that matter, still do.

Ah, but not everybody actually has a computer.
I'm thinking of local refugees, the homeless, and people on long-term state benefits (due to illness, unemployment etc).

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by RWJ

Not necessarily - they could read ebooks on their computers, as many people here did before they bought their readers, and as many people here, for that matter, still do.

It's an interesting point, and I don't know, but would those in the clutches of poverty be able to afford a computer and the neccessary internet subscription to download books onto that computer?

I know in my own neighborhood there's very few people (2 that I personally know of) who actually own their own a computer, let alone a land line to connect that computer onto the web. Yes, this is what you would call an 'impoverished' area, high crime, high unemployment and the neccesity of that life is survival. That's what I hope I'm addressing. If we want literacy, the adoption of computers and e-reading devices, how do we reach these people who have no money at all? Technology should benefit all, in my understanding, not just those who can afford it.

[RWJ]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

It's an interesting point, and I don't know, but would those in the clutches of poverty be able to afford a computer and the neccessary internet subscription to download books onto that computer?

Of course not everyone will be able to afford a computer and internet access today, and while they will become ever more accessible in the future, there will always be some who don't have them. But a) the cost of computers and internet have dropped dramatically and will continue to drop and b) this is true of all necessities, or not-really-necessities that are nonetheless essential to a civilized life.

I live in the mid-west, in a region where, according to local historians, the majority of families pre-World War Two didn't have indoor plumbing. This included not only the destitute but also significant numbers of fairly well off rural and farming families. And today, of course, anyone who's not actually homeless has access to indoor plumbing. Standards of living increase, luxuries become necessities, and the benefits eventually permeate society.

Will absolutely everyone one day have a computer and internet access? No; but that's also true of food, shelter and medical care. I suspect that those living at the subsistence level have greater problems than access to computers, ebooks, or paper books, for that matter.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by RWJ

Of course not everyone will be able to afford a computer and internet access today, and while they will become ever more accessible in the future, there will always be some who don't have them. But a) the cost of computers and internet have dropped dramatically and will continue to drop and b) this is true of all necessities, or not-really-necessities that are nonetheless essential to a civilized life.

I live in the mid-west, in a region where, according to local historians, the majority of families pre-World War Two didn't have indoor plumbing. This included not only the destitute but also significant numbers of fairly well off rural and farming families. And today, of course, anyone who's not actually homeless has access to indoor plumbing. Standards of living increase, luxuries become necessities, and the benefits eventually permeate society.

Will absolutely everyone one day have a computer and internet access? No; but that's also true of food, shelter and medical care. I suspect that those living at the subsistence level have greater problems than access to computers, ebooks, or paper books, for that matter.

I agree, standards of living have increased, even for those trapped within poverty. But I think that's the point I'm trying to make, reading shouldn't be a privilidge, it should be a right. As necessary as indoor plumbing, food and shelter, if we're to have any chance of future generations eradicating poverty once and for all. This is my concern with ereaders, the price of entry is far too costly for anyone who can barely scrape by as it is. If the only ones to adopt the technology are those who can afford it, the digital divide becomes even wider, the inequity spreads and reading, in any but the most basic forms, becomes forgotten amongst the poor. Hundreds of years of campaigning for widespread literacy will be lost in a generation or two.

I don't know about you, but I don't want to live in a world where reading becomes the sole passtime of the rich.

[RWJ]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

I don't know about you, but I don't want to live in a world where reading becomes the sole passtime of the rich.

I don't think this is at all desirable, but if you substitute "middle class or higher, with a bit of education" this is already the case. Reading for pleasure is not a phenomenon often found in those with low socio-economic status. And while it would be lovely to get this bracket reading more, they have rather a lot of other pathologies that are higher priorities, a number of which you've alluded to in discussing your current neighbourhood.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by RWJ

I don't think this is at all desirable, but if you substitute "middle class or higher, with a bit of education" this is already the case. Reading for pleasure is not a phenomenon often found in those with low socio-economic status. And while it would be lovely to get this bracket reading more, they have rather a lot of other pathologies that are higher priorities, a number of which you've alluded to in discussing your current neighbourhood.

You're right, of course, but I can't help dreaming. On a more upbeat note, I actually see more people reading in the future and I think the inequity in the system is already being tackled by the most unlkiley of groups.

The Pirates.

The movement of sharing amongst peers has grown exponentially, to a point where it can no longer be ignored. What was otherwise a culture dominated by the proft incentive, is rapdily becoming a culture where profit is an afterthought. In a culture where everything is shared freely amongst people there is no digital divide (of course it predicates a reliance on an internet connection and the costs incurred). The poorest person with a connection to the internet can, and will be able to access any part of culture for free. There is no rich and poor in this culture, only the freeflow of information.

(Okay, I'm dreaming again.. I'll have to stop myself )

[RWJ]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

The poorest person with a connection to the internet can, and will be able to access any part of culture for free. There is no rich and poor in this culture, only the freeflow of information.

(Okay, I'm dreaming again.. I'll have to stop myself )

MIT and a number of other universities have started putting course materials for some courses, including lectures, assignments and answer keys on line for free. I see this as a phenomenal and wonderful thing. There are still obstacles, beyond just access to the internet; if you're working 60 hours a week at minimum wage to get by, you probably don't have the time or energy to teach yourself calculus using MIT's materials, and even if you do, you get only the knowledge, not the credential (and, sadly, the credential has a lot more to do with getting a good job than the knowledge it theoretically represents.) But still, a step in the right direction.

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Apple does not sell any device named iTouch. They do however sell one called the iPod Touch.

Don't be so pedantic. iTouch is common vernacular to avoid typing such a long name. It is the name they should have used

Dale

[DaleDe]

Libraries are the typical answer for poor people who don't own computers. A modern library has plenty of books and even computers. Some are even looking into loaning portable devices.

Dale

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Libraries are the typical answer for poor people who don't own computers. A modern library has plenty of books and even computers. Some are even looking into loaning portable devices.

Dale

Agreed. I grew up in the library, having little money myself. It was where I could see a world I could never afford, where I discovered Steinbeck, King, Bradbury and a host of others. A couple of years ago they were closing them left-right-and-center where i live, but in the last couple of years they've started re-opening them with added computer terminals for accessing the internet. Which is fantastic news.