Seriously thoughtful Unbelievable! (not allowed to show the flag)

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by SneakySnake

Ok, maybe that comment was a little over the top. How about we change patriotic duty to patriotic freedom/right or something like that?

What often muddles me in discussions like this is that words like 'patriotism' and 'freedom' aren't clearly defined, and it's not always clear what people mean when they use these terms.

E.g. Is someone free if they are forced to recite a pledge of allegiance?

[astra]

Originally Posted by luqmaninbmore

Well, A.) recognizing difference by more fully describing yourself is not the same thing as stating it is bad to be an American and B.) the argument that you must fully agree with what America does or has done or leave is clearly fallacious, committing the fallacy of the false dichotomy.

And yes, I understand why an African American will call him/her self that: so that they and others do not forget how they got here, so that they and others don't forget that the US has a history that it has come to terms with and has failed to do so. I mean, you oppress someone, whether it be the Indigenous population or enslaved people from Africa or Irish people forced to labor in horrendous conditions (which make Foxconn look like a Summer Camp) and locked out of jobs that could improve their lot, for four hundred years, at times denying their very humanity, doing everything to exclude them, and only then get angry that they may want to differentiate themselves from the people who have been doing the oppressing? And if you say "that's not my fault, my ancestors weren't here in this country, a part of that" then are you not doing the same exact thing that you are criticizing in others: hyphenating your American identity, implicitly if not explicity?

Many other countries have come to terms with multiple identities within one national community; I don't see why the US can't do this. It will simply have to get over its historical amnesia first. A nice first start would be getting rid of that hideous law in Arizona. I mean the territory was frikkin' conquered from Mexico in an grossly immoral war that pillars of American culture such as Thoreau and Lincoln recognized as such, and you are going to get on a high horse about 'respecting the law' and the like in order to justify excluding the descendants of those from whom your ancestors (physical or spiritual) pilfered the land? The nerve.

Luqman

WOW!
So much hatred towards the country where you were born and live. Why don't you go somewhere else, somewhere that you don't hate so much? I am sure there is more than enough places on the Earth where you can find a hole to distance yourself from the disgusting United States of America.
Poor you. You are forced to live in a country that you hate.

[TGS]

Originally Posted by astra

WOW!
So much hatred towards the country where you were born and live. Why don't you go somewhere else, somewhere that you don't hate so much? I am sure there is more than enough places on the Earth where you can find a hole to distance yourself from the disgusting United States of America.
Poor you. You are forced to live in a country that you hate.

I'm not sure that being able to identify "faults" in the country of ones birth, in it's history, in the way it does things, in the way it treats people. is the same as hating it. Being critical is part of the same Enlightenment tradition the provides the well-spring for values such as freedom of speech and expression, tolerance and equality. Values which are (sometimes selectively) thought worth promoting. Damning people as "unpatriotic" or "the enemy within" for expressing critical views, as is often claimed by those who see themselves as protecting these values (you might remember "the enemy within" was one of Thatcher's favourites - I expect to see its re-emergence over the next couple of years), is itself in contradiction to the very values of freedom, tolerance and equality.

[astra]

Critical is fine.
However, the tone of his post is a different kettle of fish altogether.

[Spoon Man]

Originally Posted by BuddyBoy

Can I clarify something? I'd appreciate it if you could make the real effort to put yourself in the following hypothetical situation. Let's say you rented out a room to a student or such in your house, and they chose to drape a nazi flag in their window, or a tattered, ripped and burned american flag with, say, a large red circle and slash though it, you'd be fine with that being displayed on your property and defend their right to do so?

Or would you tell them to take it down or face eviction?

I would be pretty unhappy with them, borderline Irate actually, but legally the only thing I could do is ask them not to display the Nazi flag or the burned American Flag, as long as they have a lease agreement with me. I wouldn't be happy at all about it, and I would ask that if they wished to display it they would do so in a private room, but once again they wouldn't have a legal obligation to do so. The only thing I could do, and would only do if there were potentially other tenants and they were to request me to do so, is refuse to renew the lease.

Originally Posted by Sparrow

What often muddles me in discussions like this is that words like 'patriotism' and 'freedom' aren't clearly defined, and it's not always clear what people mean when they use these terms.

E.g. Is someone free if they are forced to recite a pledge of allegiance?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Freedom

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Patriotism

And I do agree with TGS on this one, Astra.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by rhadin

Want to know what bothers me? (Probably not, but I'm going to tell you anyway.) It's not the flag burning, the flag loathing, or Sean Hannity spouting idiocy. It's hyphens -- yup, hyphens as in Polish-American, African-American, Italian-American, Mexican-American, etc.

Familiar with the item (poem, I suppose you would call it) by Marion M. Morrison?

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by luqmaninbmore

So.... Lincoln and Jefferson: Undead fight to the death! er... resurrection?

Oh, don't be silly.

Of course Lincoln would win!

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by Spoon Man

Well, the lease does sound all well and good, but the is the lease deal infringing on our first amendment rights?

No. The Constitution protects our rights against the government, not against private citizens. If Congress passed a law outlawing the prohibition, then the lease would violate the law, but not the Constitution.

[obs20]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

Familiar with the item (poem, I suppose you would call it) by Marion M. Morrison?

I can't stand that Draft Dodging drugstore cowboy

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by obs20

I can't stand that Draft Dodging drugstore cowboy

good grief

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

good grief

Gotta agree with that sentiment.

[wodin]

Originally Posted by Rich_D

I don't believe that's the issue with the situation in the OP. The veteran doesn't own the property. We have freedom of speech in this country, but if someone posts a flyer or sign on my property and I don't agree with it, I have the right to take it down. If I want to fly a flag on my property, I have the right, unless I signed that right away by agreeing to an associations rules.

I don't agree with their rule, but the property owner has the right to say not to fly a flag and I certainly don't want the government stepping in changing that.

In the case in question - the owners were swayed by public opinion to change the rule.

Having spent half of my rather long (so far) life in the defense of my country (23 years in active duty in the US Navy, and ten years as a Dept. of the Army Civilian), I proudly display my national symbol whenever appropriate, I have even had a license plate with a US flag on it. I also stand and salute during the playing of the National Anthem and the passing of the Colors.

That being said, it has been my observation that many people do not understand that the constitution protects the people from the Government, not the other way around. Private individuals and organizations are not bound by the constitution, and may impose any lawful rules they see fit.

So, this is NOT a first amendment issue, it is a failure of our legislature to properly word existing legislation protecting the right to display the flag so that it includes renters.

[Xanthe]

Originally Posted by astra

WOW!
So much hatred towards the country where you were born and live. Why don't you go somewhere else, somewhere that you don't hate so much? I am sure there is more than enough places on the Earth where you can find a hole to distance yourself from the disgusting United States of America.
Poor you. You are forced to live in a country that you hate.

Why is it whenever someone criticizes this country, they are told to leave it? How intolerant is that? I imagine the Puritans and the Pilgrims were told the same thing back in Old England.

Frankly, I'm more worried about the blinkered "love it or leave it" crowd than about someone who sees this country's warts and decides to stick with it anyway.

I consider myself a hyphenated American and I'm damned proud of all of my heritages. I'm not going to hide what I am; my ancestors suffered so that I didn't have to. My great- and grandparents who were first off the boat were discriminated against and were considered only slightly better than African-Americans. I've heard the stories from the people who lived it. So I have no illusions about the ugly side of our history.

[astra]

Originally Posted by Xanthe

Why is it whenever someone criticizes this country, they are told to leave it? How intolerant is that? I imagine the Puritans and the Pilgrims were told the same thing back in Old England.

Frankly, I'm more worried about the blinkered "love it or leave it" crowd than about someone who sees this country's warts and decides to stick with it anyway.

I consider myself a hyphenated American and I'm damned proud of all of my heritages. I'm not going to hide what I am; my ancestors suffered so that I didn't have to. My great- and grandparents who were first off the boat were discriminated against and were considered only slightly better than African-Americans. I've heard the stories from the people who lived it. So I have no illusions about the ugly side of our history.

The answer to your question

[obs20]

According to Gary Wills’ book “John Wayne’s America,” the man who portrayed the archetypal, battle-hardened Marine, Sgt. Stryker, in 1949’s “The Sands of Iwo Jima,” actually avoided the draft during WWII. Wills contends that the Duke did not reply to letters from the Selective Service system, and applied for deferments. Apparently, Wayne—who had sought stardom during years of B-pictures following Raoul Walsh’s 1930 frontier drama “The Big Trail”—got his big break during the struggle against fascism when many Hollywood action heroes like Tyrone Power enlisted and shipped out overseas.

With much of the competition away in the Pacific and European theaters, Wayne was able to storm movie theaters to solidify his stardom. While Jimmy Stewart and his fellow celebrity servicemen were real action heroes, Wayne was a “Lights! Cameras! Action!” hero who merely played the part in the safety of Tinseltown’s home front and back lot.

Director John Ford discovered Wayne when he was on USC’s football team, and with his rugged physique, the 6-foot-4-inch Duke was identified with American machismo.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/...of_john_wayne/

My father, a combat vet who was awarded The Bronze Star in WWII, couldn't stand Wayne and is posturing. I consider myself a reluctant Vietnam era vet. That said, I never felt the need to wave the flag in order to show my patriotism. It's absolutely ridiculous to believe that USA patriots are discriminated in the USA.