Pocket Pro battery issue?

[Solicitous]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Yeah don't you love how much clear concise information is supplied.

Your assumption is as good as mine and they match.

I wonder if it is worth having on the wiki pages here for each reader the option for us to add our own little bit of documentation, such as this charging indicator, and from what I have read in other posts maybe additional information on each firmware release. I am more than sure that people have found little tips'n tricks with the PP and a static page would be great for sharing.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Solicitous

I wonder if it is worth having on the wiki pages here for each reader the option for us to add our own little bit of documentation, such as this charging indicator, and from what I have read in other posts maybe additional information on each firmware release. I am more than sure that people have found little tips'n tricks with the PP and a static page would be great for sharing.

I think that's a great idea!

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by kennyc

I think that's a great idea!

I do too. I was thinking of writing a full manual on the wiki. This effort could certainly blossom into a full manual through collective effort. So I would say, not just a supplement but a independent manual would be the goal.

Dale

[Xerxes]

Someone in one of these threads posted about this site called Battery University. And I was reading part of one article that stuck me.

Lithium-ion is a very clean system and does not need priming as nickel-based batteries do. The 1st charge is no different to the 5th or the 50th charge. Stickers instructing to charge the battery for 8 hours or more for the first time may be a leftover from the nickel battery days.

Preparing new lithium-ion for use

Unlike nickel and lead-based batteries, a new lithium-ion pack does not need cycling through charging and discharging. Priming will make little difference because the maximum capacity of lithium-ion is available right from the beginning. Neither does a full discharge improve the capacity of a faded pack. However, a full discharge/charge will reset the digital circuit of a 'smart' battery to improve the state-of-charge estimation

[kennyc]

Xerxes, right. I think the cycling they recommend may have more to do with getting the charge/discharge meter calibrated than anything to do with the battery.

[theducks]

Originally Posted by Var

I have received my PP5 right before the Labor Day. I was very excited, but since I was very busy, I didn't have time to play with it.
Right out of box it came with the battery already installed. It was showing it as FULL, but I did follow the instructions and charged it - it took about 10 hours.
Yesterday I turned it on and it was only one bar short from full. It made sense since the total time it was used was around 20 min max.
Today I took it to the office to show it to my co-worked. I have turned it on and all I got was four short beeps. Reset didn't work. After coming to home (I didn't have the power adapter with me since I was not expecting I was going to need to charge the battery) I connected to the power adapter and it did start. The battery was EMPTY!

Right now it's charging. But I am worried a little bit: it was fully charged 9 days ago and the total usage time was only about 20 minutes. Yesterday it was showing (FULL-1) bar (I just checked and turned it OFF). Today is was EMPTY!

What are your comments - is this normal? I do understand that new batteries need a few full cycles before becoming 'normal', but still... No extreme conditions (temperature, ...).

I will see how it goes and I will update the forum.

Thanks,

You have found Li-ion's dirty little secret .
It is called high "Self Discharge". It loses 10% or more the first day off charge.
Note: Every battery normally has a "Self Discharge Rate". The rate varies by many conditions of use and storage. The product designer should make their choice of battery technology to use, based upon many factors required for the device being powered.

Li-ion's claim to fame is high power to weight ratio. This is great in a device like a Laptop or Camera that needs to grab good sized chunks of power right now.

Your common Alkaline battery is noted for it's great "shelf life" (just look at the "use by" dates), but it suffers more if you do fast discharges (Camera flashes,Talking on your Cell).
I suspect that Peak power (needed for page turns) and light weight and form factor were controlling choices, not really long times between charges.
Bottom line: Charge Li-ion batteries just before use. Carrying a "Charged Spare" for the PEZ on a long term trip is just carrying a "paper weight", carry a "rollup solar" charger instead http://www.inhabitat.com/2007/11/19/...adget-charger/

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by theducks

....
Bottom line: Charge Li-ion batteries just before use. Carrying a "Charged Spare" for the PEZ on a long term trip is just carrying a "paper weight", carry a "rollup solar" charger instead http://www.inhabitat.com/2007/11/19/...adget-charger/

True, but that costs more than buying a second e-book reader.

[Dave_S]

Originally Posted by theducks

Li-ion's claim to fame is high power to weight ratio. This is great in a device like a Laptop or Camera that needs to grab good sized chunks of power right now.

Lithium-ion batteries do not suffer from the memory effect. They also have a low self-discharge rate of approximately 0.1% per month, compared with over 30% per month in common nickel metal hydride batteries, approx. 1.25% per month for Low Self-Discharge NiMH batteries and 10% per month in nickel cadmium batteries.[28] According to one manufacturer, Li-ion cells (and, accordingly, "dumb" Li-ion batteries) do not have any self-discharge in the usual meaning of this word.[19] What looks like a self-discharge in these batteries is a permanent loss of capacity (see below). On the other hand, "smart" Li-ion batteries do self-discharge, mainly due to the small constant drain of the built-in voltage monitoring circuit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery

[Toeknee]

I emailed Astak support about some problems that I was having and the tech suggested that my battery might not be charging properly and that a PEZ can misbehave on a low battery. He said that if your PEZ is doing weird things, it might not be charging properly and the fix is as follows:

1. Take out the battery completely (disconnect the wires).
2. Put device on charge (device will reboot).
3. Put battery back in the device while charging.

That is a quote from his email...I'm assuming it means disconnect the battery, plug in the unit then re-attach the battery and let it charge.

[theducks]

Originally Posted by Dave_S

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery

Someone is not telling the truth (AKA spin)
To wit
AA Li-ion (dumb cells) from Energiser RECHARGEABLE and 2 other brands in the charger that was included with the batteries (and 2 alternate Li-ion chargers).
1 weak after a "full charge" (charging LED out), and multiple brand Cameras (set to Li-ion) say 1/2 charge or less.
The non-rechargeable "Lithium" battery has Excellent shelf life.
1 set of with the problem I would have said, bad part. 6 combinations of cells, chargers and Cameras..
YMMV

[Xerxes]

Originally Posted by theducks

Someone is not telling the truth (AKA spin)
To wit
AA Li-ion (dumb cells) from Energiser RECHARGEABLE and 2 other brands in the charger that was included with the batteries (and 2 alternate Li-ion chargers).
1 weak after a "full charge" (charging LED out), and multiple brand Cameras (set to Li-ion) say 1/2 charge or less.
The non-rechargeable "Lithium" battery has Excellent shelf life.
1 set of with the problem I would have said, bad part. 6 combinations of cells, chargers and Cameras..
YMMV

Of course battery companies lie. They assume most people haven't been to Battery U.

[Dave_S]

Originally Posted by theducks

Someone is not telling the truth (AKA spin)
To wit
AA Li-ion (dumb cells) from Energiser RECHARGEABLE and 2 other brands in the charger that was included with the batteries (and 2 alternate Li-ion chargers).
1 weak after a "full charge" (charging LED out), and multiple brand Cameras (set to Li-ion) say 1/2 charge or less.
The non-rechargeable "Lithium" battery has Excellent shelf life.
1 set of with the problem I would have said, bad part. 6 combinations of cells, chargers and Cameras..
YMMV

Sorry that you had such bad experience, but that sort of anecdotal evidence is really not a basis to disregard scientific facts concerning the technology. In fact, since you did not mention specific voltages or other actual measured data, there is no real way to know where things went wrong in your anecdote.

The Wikipedia article that I cited has 71 references to back up statements made in the article, so claiming the article is wrong about the very low self discharge rate of Lithium chemistry cells is arguing against a very large weight of scientific evidence. Maybe if you read the article and the cited references you would be able to understand what went wrong in your anecdote?

FWIW, I have been using unprotected "dumb" Lithium cells in electric flying model aircraft and other devices for several years, and have never ever seen any easily measurable self discharge. Lithium cells certainly are not perfect, but self discharge is not one of their imperfections and is orders of magnitude better than Nickel based cells.

[Dave_S]

Originally Posted by Xerxes

Of course battery companies lie. They assume most people haven't been to Battery U.

The sponsor of Battery University is Cadex Electronics Inc., a manufacturer of battery analyzers and chargers, so it is definitely not a disinterested third party undergoing peer review like Wikipedia articles must do.

That said, the Battery University has a lot of good information, especially in more easily understood terms for non-engineer types.

[Toeknee]

I'm happy to report that I'm getting pretty good battery life. I let it charge overnight when I first got my PEZ and it has only been plugged in a couple of times for a few minutes over the past three days while I downloaded books onto it.

So far, in three days I have read one book and am 1100 page turns into a second one. I still have four full bars!

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Toeknee

I'm happy to report that I'm getting pretty good battery life. I let it charge overnight when I first got my PEZ and it has only been plugged in a couple of times for a few minutes over the past three days while I downloaded books onto it.

So far, in three days I have read one book and am 1100 page turns into a second one. I still have four full bars!