Author Earnings looks beyond Kindle

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Fjtorres,
The thing is there have been some traditional books in there. But I would bet that it is a totally different pay scale from the small press and the indies.

.

You would win that bet by default.
It has been publicly known since the Kindle Lending library was launched that Amazon pays full freight to lend out select tradpub titles. They bring them in and push them out at their own discretion.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Phogg

That assumes Amazon is not focused on a long term game.

If Amazon is focused on a long term game then it is far more important to train upcoming generations of readers not to associate the books that they love with publishing houses.

Exactly.
They've been playing that game from day one of the Kindle and every time the BPHs try to push them around (2009, 2014) they commit even more strongly to Indies.

Indies taking such a big slice of Kindle's business is no accident.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Exactly.
They've been playing that game from day one of the Kindle and every time the BPHs try to push them around (2009, 2014) they commit even more strongly to Indies.

Indies taking such a big slice of Kindle's business is no accident.

Or is it Indies are giving Kindle some leverage they wouldn't have without them?

I think it goes both ways.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Or is it Indies are giving Kindle some leverage they wouldn't have without them?

I think it goes both ways.

Leverage Amazon has actively courted.
It definitely goes both ways, but Amazon using Indie, Inc as "BPH insurance" isn't serendipity for Amazon; it is a strategic plan coming together. Self-publishing was baked into the Kindle from the beginning, at least two years before Indie publishing took off in 2009.

Fictionwise relied a lot on indie publishing but it didn't become mainstream-viable until after Kindle took off. And it can be argued that Indie mainstream success doesn't just correlate with high BPH prices, it relies on it.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Leverage Amazon has actively courted.
It definitely goes both ways, but Amazon using Indie, Inc as "BPH insurance" isn't serendipity for Amazon; it is a strategic plan coming together. Self-publishing was baked into the Kindle from the beginning, at least two years before Indie publishing took off in 2009.

Fictionwise relied a lot on indie publishing but it didn't become mainstream-viable until after Kindle took off. And it can be argued that Indie mainstream success doesn't just correlate with high BPH prices, it relies on it.

We could argue prices all day. I know one Independent that has always charged $9.99 for his ebooks, both fiction and non-fiction. I know others that charge 99 cents. Most are somewhere in between.
One author charges various prices depending on which of his series. I think at last count he has written or will write 50+ books in 4 years. Including 2 trads.
But yes, being cheaper than trad helped launch the successful indies.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

We could argue prices all day. I know one Independent that has always charged $9.99 for his ebooks, both fiction and non-fiction. I know others that charge 99 cents. Most are somewhere in between.
One author charges various prices depending on which of his series. I think at last count he has written or will write 50+ books in 4 years. Including 2 trads.
But yes, being cheaper than trad helped launch the successful indies.

Pricing is really an interesting topic and was the focus of the kobo survey and seems to be a BIG focus of their latest promo ops. While I do think pricing is very important, what I find odd is that few ad places or retailers put in much effort for the higher priced items. There's obviously a market for them, even if it is a smaller market. As an example, I frequently browse regularly priced titles. While I may not BUY them and almost never right that instant, I'm still in the market, even if it is as a library reader. I get the "low hanging fruit" thing, but I don't get ignoring customers who will 1. spend on the higher books and 2. convert from lower priced to higher. I am mostly number 2. If I find a series I like, I am much more willing to pay a higher price for the next in the series, yet there is so little focus on ads that combine an entire series or work to pair books one and two. Authors can do it with a boxed set, of course, but then ad places don't want to advertise them outside the free, 99 cent or maybe 1.99 range. Yet, I've found that if people KNOW about boxed sets, they will buy them (most boxed set prices represent some sort of discount).

As an advertiser, I've found that topic and presentation are almost as important as price (excluding free. To some extent you can count on a certain number of downloads simply because it is free). Reviews of a 6.99 book can sell as many or close to as many books as a 99 cent special. Of course, a review is more than just vetting the cover and blurb, which means more work is put into it, but the earning potential is higher as well.

(edited to add: I don't take reviews as 'ads' and do not accept payment of any kind from author or publisher. I have just noticed that it is possible to cultivate an audience other than "free" and 99 cents if there is value-ad. I am an affiliate so in that regard, I make more money from higher priced books.)

[fjtorres]

In any market, price setting is more black art than science (unless you have Amazon's databases. And even then...).

Part of the problem with pricing ebooks is that it isn't a single market, even within the individual genres. You have a blend of established "brands" jockeying for attention side-by-side with newcomers; backlist and new releases; standalones and series. And then the publishers, whether indie or tradpub, have different goals in mind when they set prices; some publishers seek go maximize the unit gross, others seek to maximize unit sales, still others aim to maximize net, and any of those goals can be applied one book or an enture series. A total newcomer ramping up a career isn't going to get the same results as a long-time (relatively speaking) player with a deep catalog.

Most attention focuses on the extremes (permafree, $0.99, versus the "protect print" strategies) and very little on the more sophisticated ones available to Indies, like stair-casing and regular price jogging. And, of course new ones working in the effects of KU. And, often times, pricing concerns totally overwhelm other visibility enhancers such as covers, blurbs, metadata (the BPHs' magic bullet of the month). One particularly elegant (for its simplicity) tactic some Indies use is to provide a CreateSpace POD edition, list-priced with a high enough margin to qualify for B&M sales, which usually means somewhere in the $13-17 range. Then they price the ebook in the $3.99 to $4.99 range which allows for promos at $2.99 as well presenting the normal ebook list as a big discount from print. As it allows for the occasional print sale, too.
Of course, that isn't a tactic suitable for a 30k word novella but for longer titles it provides the perception of value. Combined with an eye-catching cover it can provide higher sales than tossing the title into a sea of freebies. Or not.

Milleage varies.
But there are really many ways of effectively marketing books and price promotions are just one of many tools that can be used, alone or in combination.

An obsessive concern with retail prices can be counterproductive, as a certain group of publishers are busy demonstrating right now.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

In any market, price setting is more black art than science (unless you have Amazon's databases. And even then...).

Part of the problem with pricing ebooks is that it isn't a single market, even within the individual genres. You have a blend of established "brands" jockeying for attention side-by-side with newcomers; backlist and new releases; standalones and series. And then the publishers, whether indie or tradpub, have different goals in mind when they set prices; some publishers seek go maximize the unit gross, others seek to maximize unit sales, still others aim to maximize net, and any of those goals can be applied one book or an enture series. A total newcomer ramping up a career isn't going to get the same results as a long-time (relatively speaking) player with a deep catalog.

Most attention focuses on the extremes (permafree, $0.99, versus the "protect print" strategies) and very little on the more sophisticated ones available to Indies, like stair-casing and regular price jogging. And, of course new ones working in the effects of KU. And, often times, pricing concerns totally overwhelm other visibility enhancers such as covers, blurbs, metadata (the BPHs' magic bullet of the month). One particularly elegant (for its simplicity) tactic some Indies use is to provide a CreateSpace POD edition, list-priced with a high enough margin to qualify for B&M sales, which usually means somewhere in the $13-17 range. Then they price the ebook in the $3.99 to $4.99 range which allows for promos at $2.99 as well presenting the normal ebook list as a big discount from print. As it allows for the occasional print sale, too.
Of course, that isn't a tactic suitable for a 30k word novella but for longer titles it provides the perception of value. Combined with an eye-catching cover it can provide higher sales than tossing the title into a sea of freebies. Or not.

Milleage varies.
But there are really many ways of effectively marketing books and price promotions are just one of many tools that can be used, alone or in combination.

An obsessive concern with retail prices can be counterproductive, as a certain group of publishers are busy demonstrating right now.

You realize this exact post could apply to pretty much everything from groceries to clothes to electronics.

Heck how many different prices are there for a can of corn in the grocery store?

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

You realize this exact post could apply to pretty much everything from groceries to clothes to electronics.

Heck how many different prices are there for a can of corn in the grocery store?

Depends on how many brands and sizes.
But canned corn vendors all have the exact same agenda, no?
(Make as much money off their corn as possible.)
All authors and all publishers don't all have the same motivations. And sometimes authors don't have the same interests as their publishers.

All of which makes discussions of pricing (and success, for that matter) a lot harder because there is no common measure of success.

[Cinisajoy]

I think that was exactly my point.
Everything has varying prices.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

I think that was exactly my point.
Everything has varying prices.

By factors of 4-15x? Not everything.
Few product categories have those kind of price differentials in a single customer base.
Price variability has limits. Once you go to extremes you're no longer talking about the same customers or even the same market. Raise the price enough and you leave your old customers behind.

Once the price differential is high enough you're really talking different markets (Ferrari vs Tata gets you to 15X but not many other product pairings.)

A $15 ebook is not looking to sell to the $0.99 crowd.
The former appeals to committed fans looking for more of the same while the latter is targetting readers looking for new experiences or time killers. The former's readers have to have that specific book; a very narrow segment of the ebook world compared to the bargain-priced title's potential readership. It's one of the reason why there are "magic" price thresholds, like the $299 price for mainstreaming electronic gadgets.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

By factors of 4-15x? Not everything.
Few product categories have those kind of price differentials in a single customer base.
Price variability has limits. Once you go to extremes you're no longer talking about the same customers or even the same market. Raise the price enough and you leave your old customers behind.

Once the price differential is high enough you're really talking different markets (Ferrari vs Tata gets you to 15X but not many other product pairings.)

A $15 ebook is not looking to sell to the $0.99 crowd.
The former appeals to committed fans looking for more of the same while the latter is targetting readers looking for new experiences or time killers. The former's readers have to have that specific book; a very narrow segment of the ebook world compared to the bargain-priced title's potential readership. It's one of the reason why there are "magic" price thresholds, like the $299 price for mainstreaming electronic gadgets.

Well now I know two average Joe's that both do very well at selling ebooks. One's price is $3.99 the other is $9.99. They both do very well even though they are diversely prices.
One loves Jack Daniels and the other one is a Nobody.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Alph

--- [This person has been determined to be a spammer and has now been BANNED - MODERATOR.]

I don't think your site is for real. There is no way you could be giving away all of the Harry Potter eBooks for free.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Well now I know two average Joe's that both do very well at selling ebooks. One's price is $3.99 the other is $9.99. They both do very well even though they are diversely prices.
One loves Jack Daniels and the other one is a Nobody.

And what is the differential? About 50%, no?
That isn't exactly extreme.

You know, I'm not saying everybody needs to be at the same price or that you can't "succeed" at higher prices.

I'm just saying that different prices are product of different goals so you can't use the same definition of success for everybody. Somebody list pricing an ebook at $15 is clearly not looking for the same outcome as somebody list pricing at $0.99. Two different strategies looking for different forms of "success".

[Cinisajoy]

I was just pointing out they both do very well at the prices they have chosen.
Both of them make enough to have employees.
I know the one that prices less is funding a project to get more good indies into libraries.
He has very strict rules as to which books he accepts.
My point is price really doesn't matter when it comes to earnings. Some cheaper priced books earn the author more than a Stephen King advance.
Oh wait, the $3.99 guy also earns extra off Jack Daniels. I think he is a kindle world but the original merging of worlds were set up between him and other authors.

So now that we have that covered.
Oh and yes those two have very different target audiences.
One is police procedural readers/horror readers and the other is preppers and gun lovers.
The second one actually sells as much paper as ebooks. He is niche.