12% of ebooks are self-published; most are rubbish, claims editor

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Have you tried looking a bit?

But seriously, some people in this thread make it seem as if great books just magically appeared in front of their eyeballs with the old system. When the truth is that they've always had an external "system" to help them choose books--whether it was best seller lists, displays at their favorite bookstore/library, recommendations from friends/bookclubs, reviews from newspapers/magazines (or just plain online research). A system they spent a lot of time and energy developing. A complex system that has become almost transparent and effortless to them.

So I GET that people might be loathe to alter or step away from that system (or develop a new one). I really do. But that in no way means that it's impossible to do so (with very successful, repeatable results). Or that such a new system could become just as effortless/transparent as the old one in time.

There's a difference between "I don't want to" and "it can't be done (and no one should want to)."

"It's all rubbish" is negated with the first indie book you find that isn't.

I don't expect everybody to follow suit but my first reaction to an intriguing book on Amazon is to click on the author's name to see their full catalog. Then I check to see how deep the catalog is, how are the other titles reviewed, and the publication dates of the earlier works. Odds are an author with a ten year history is probably at least half descent. Or Tom Clancy.

Failing that, much of that info can be found through Google, Bing, or Wikipedia.

Finding good reads is not hard at all.
One trick I figured out way back when I was educating myself about SF is to take the author names out of a popular/well reviewed anthology and track down their works. For the teenager I used to be that meant the campus library card file and writing the publishers for copies of their consumer newsletter/catalog. Today that means going online--a lot easier.

Brain surgery it ain't...

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

Most of the folks I know who enjoy Indie authors are not bothered by grammar and spelling issues. Most of the folks I know who have not been able to get into Indie authors are put off by obvious grammar and spelling mistakes.

Why do you think it is that so many indie authors have lousy grammar and spelling? Unless you do have a problem like dyslexia, it's pure laziness not to learn to spell and use grammar correctly. Why are there so many indie authors who can't be bothered to get it right? That's what I can't understand. Surely if you want to be a writer, it's in your own interests to learn how to use the "tools of the trade", and those for an author are the use of language.

[RHWright]

For me there's grammar and then there's grammar.

The precision and strictness many people are taught to utilize in/for school/academia is not always the best way to communicate in a narrative form. Strunk & White's Elements of Style is useful, but it's not a great manual on how to write narrative fiction.

Certain mistakes of grammar/spelling/style/usage are absolutes for me (I won't belabor them here):

#1 - know the spelling and meaning of the word you want to use. Its/it's, there/their/they're, to/two/too are pretty easy to master and understand.

But I'm not a stickler about split infinitives, beginning a sentence with a conjunction, or ending one with a preposition. Sometimes style and effective communication trumps strict grammar. You should have a strong grounding in the "rules" before you can decide when it is proper and effective to bend or break them.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by RHWright

Certain mistakes of grammar/spelling/style/usage are absolutes for me (I won't belabor them here):

#1 - know the spelling and meaning of the word you want to use. Its/it's, there/their/they're, to/two/too are pretty easy to master and understand.

Those are the things that bug me the most.

But I'm not a stickler about split infinitives, beginning a sentence with a conjunction, or ending one with a preposition. Sometimes style and effective communication trumps strict grammar. You should have a strong grounding in the "rules" before you can decide when it is proper and effective to bend or break them.

I would differentiate "grammar" and "style". All the things you mention there I'd class as style, not grammar.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The reading habit is worn by the nuns of the almighty eBook.

Aren't they part of the "Order of the miraculous Bookmark"?

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by teh603

I went to one of the most expensive Christian schools in town. Everything I listed earlier was taught as grammar instead of style. People even got a week of grammar detention for failing a special test given every six weeks. Believe me, they were in-freaking-sane about making sure everyone knew the nitpicky details of grammar.

Or maybe we were taught from different manuals of form, meant for different purposes? Everything we were taught was to "prepare" us for writing AP exam essays and papers for higher academia- and probably induce the odd nervous breakdown here and there. Either way, functional creative writing was never on the table.

I still want to know what grammar manuals were filled with these pronouncements.

Academic writing is a specialized form of writing with more stringent rules.

[ProfCrash]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

There is no such nice list. Any more than there's a nice list that spits out quality traditionally published books you will be guaranteed to enjoy. You have to discover what works for you. You have to find your own filters for your own standards. Just like you did the first time around. There's resources and individuals on this very forum (some have posted in this very thread) that can point you toward authors/works they've found worthy.

But there are. There are lists compiled by all sorts of folks as to what they consider to be the best writing or a given year and a given genre. There are lists based on who has sold what. If I am looking for something to read and nothing is catching my eye, I will look at those recommendations and probably buy something. I also rely on recommendations from friends and family. I share an account with my mother so I read some of what she buys for her book club.

I am not nearly as prolific a reader as many of the people on this board. Before having a child, I was reading between 50-60 books a year. OK, only on a board like this would I consider that not prolific but that is beside the point....

There are plenty of main stream published books to hold me over. Sci FI and Fantasy recommendations from friends and family have led me to some cool finds. But none of them read independent authors and I doubt mainy of them would have a clue where to start.

Let's pretend that I am someone who is just developing an interest in reading. I walk into a bookstore or the library. There are shelves of books that are recommended by employees, librarians, or book lists. That is probably were I start. From there, I probably get a better feel for what I like and don't like and start searching on Amazon or at Barnes and Nobles or I go to my local Indie store and say "I really liked book X, what would you recommend" More likely than not the recommendation is going to be published by a main stream author.

How would you guide that person to the world of independent authors in a manner that would help them find a good book that would make them want to do the work to find more books like that as oppose to browse the aisle at BN?

Because I am that person who is interested but I really don't want to spend a ton of time reading sample after sample and not finding anything interesting. I tried that. It didn't work.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The reading habit is worn by the nuns of the almighty eBook.

heheheh I have said that I hired proof readers to look over my professional work, right?

[BeccaPrice]

Originally Posted by crich70

I wouldn't pay any attention to those who say there is no market for Fairy Tales Becca. They said the same thing when L. Frank Baum wrote "The Wizard of Oz" and look what happened there.

Thanks, Crich. I guess my biggest problem is getting the word out that the book exists. I have a wonderful cover from a professional writer, and a dynamite blurg - I think people just don't know abut it. I'm trying a Goodreads giveaway, so we'll see how that works.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

How would you guide that person to the world of independent authors in a manner that would help them find a good book that would make them want to do the work to find more books like that as oppose to browse the aisle at BN?

Quite simply put: I wouldn't guide that person to the world of independent authors... or away from the B&N aisle. I'm not interested in converting people into indie readers. I'm only interested in convincing people not to exclude a work/author based solely on how it came to market. And in convincing them that just because there's more and more crap out there, doesn't necessarily mean that you have to wade through more and more of that crap to get to where you want to go. Much crap is easily dismissable at a glance. Shills and sock-puppets aren't really very clever at all.

Unfortunately:

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

Because I am that person who is interested but I really don't want to spend a ton of time reading sample after sample and not finding anything interesting. I tried that. It didn't work.

... it seems you're not willing to use the simplest and most effective crap detector/filter at your disposal. The free sample.

Find a book whose genre/description/premise interests you (forget whether it's indie or trad) ... download the sample ... if they didn't butcher the language in that chapter and you still find yourself interested in the story, consider purchasing the book. When you then find an indie author whose work you enjoy, chances are they'll have an online presence/forum of some sort where fans will be discussing other similar works they enjoy. Boom ... you're on your way.

In short, if you often rely on recommendations from friends and you'd like to find some quality indie authors, then you might need to make friends with other readers who read indie authors. Online or otherwise. There's some here, and there's usually some to be found on every "Other Authors" section of every traditionally published author's online forum (official or un-).

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

But there are. There are lists compiled by all sorts of folks as to what they consider to be the best writing or a given year and a given genre. There are lists based on who has sold what. If I am looking for something to read and nothing is catching my eye, I will look at those recommendations and probably buy something. I also rely on recommendations from friends and family. I share an account with my mother so I read some of what she buys for her book club.

I am not nearly as prolific a reader as many of the people on this board. Before having a child, I was reading between 50-60 books a year. OK, only on a board like this would I consider that not prolific but that is beside the point....

There are plenty of main stream published books to hold me over. Sci FI and Fantasy recommendations from friends and family have led me to some cool finds. But none of them read independent authors and I doubt mainy of them would have a clue where to start.

Let's pretend that I am someone who is just developing an interest in reading. I walk into a bookstore or the library. There are shelves of books that are recommended by employees, librarians, or book lists. That is probably were I start. From there, I probably get a better feel for what I like and don't like and start searching on Amazon or at Barnes and Nobles or I go to my local Indie store and say "I really liked book X, what would you recommend" More likely than not the recommendation is going to be published by a main stream author.

How would you guide that person to the world of independent authors in a manner that would help them find a good book that would make them want to do the work to find more books like that as oppose to browse the aisle at BN?

Because I am that person who is interested but I really don't want to spend a ton of time reading sample after sample and not finding anything interesting. I tried that. It didn't work.



heheheh I have said that I hired proof readers to look over my professional work, right?

The way I help them is to ask what genre they like and then suggest some good indie titles (assuming they are open to indie titles). That isn't hard for me to do usually because I read a pretty wide spectrum. I'm weak in thrillers, these days because I don't read them much anymore. Probably a bit weak in romance, but I have read some decent ones. I can't always help, but that's the way I go about it.

[BearMountainBooks]

I used to use the sample method, but gads. It's a time suck. For whatever reason, I've switched to lendleme. I don't bother to sample, but I'll borrow the whole book. Yeah, I'm using up borrows, but that way if the "sample" beginning grabs me, I keep reading. If it doesn't, I ditch it. I didn't like sampling and then having to still figure out whether to buy or borrow. In some instances the sample wasn't long enough (meaning I was kind of undecided.) When I borrow a book, I'm good to go if it works. If not, I'm really not out much.

So I get that sampling doesn't work for everyone. I wasted a few afternoons just sampling and that can be nuts.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by teh603

I went to one of the most expensive Christian schools in town. Everything I listed earlier was taught as grammar instead of style. People even got a week of grammar detention for failing a special test given every six weeks. Believe me, they were in-freaking-sane about making sure everyone knew the nitpicky details of grammar.

Grammar and spelling needs to be just "good", IMHO. If you go over a book again and again making sure that all the nitpicky details are correct, then you are just wasting time and money.

The reason? Because *most* people's grammar and spelling are not good enough to detect these small mistakes. I'm sure I'm making small mistakes in Dutch, English and (somewhat bigger ones) in German all the time, but most people won't even notice.

However:

your vs. you're
there vs. their vs they're
then vs. than
it's vs. its
where vs. were vs. we're
...

You have to get those things right; I don't perceive them as being small mistakes, but as blunders.

In Dutch, we have words that sometimes end on a T, a D, or DT. Many people don't know the simple rules for this, and they just start guessing. They even go as far as "guessing" in case there is no question what should be written.

Dog -> Hond. There *is* no word "Hont" or "Hondt". You just look like an idiot if you write that.
Wood -> Hout. "Houd" and "Houdt" do exist, but these are different inflections of "to keep". They mean something completely different.

If people make such mistakes, then (IMHO) they shouldn't be writing.

Oh. One of my English teachers always livid if you used "with" as a word to end a sentence with. Is that really something one shouldn't do?

[DiapDealer]

I'm perfectly content to take several days researching online to find the next book I want to invest my time/money into. I'm not on that tight of a schedule. I doubt I break the 20 books per year mark very often these days. I view free samples as an absolute godsend in that research process. I can usually dispatch the grammar/spelling butchers (or the utterly ungifted) in a page or less.

Perhaps I'm just contrary. I do tend to prefer 'sleepers' (regardless of how they were published).

[teh603]

Originally Posted by Catlady

I still want to know what grammar manuals were filled with these pronouncements.

Academic writing is a specialized form of writing with more stringent rules.

It was one of the more backward MLA Handbooks. It had just added a section on citing "online services" when I graduated in 2000, and still didn't have anything for citing internet articles.

Katsunami- Using "its" exclusively is still a bit of a typing quirk of mine. It comes from me preferring to be wrong less than half the time (since "it's" doesn't show up much outside of dialog), than 100% of the time. Like I said, some of that big hoopla the school made over grammar might've been to induce nervous breakdowns.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by teh603

It was one of the more backward MLA Handbooks. It had just added a section on citing "online services" when I graduated in 2000, and still didn't have anything for citing internet articles.

MLA Handbook is a style manual for research papers; it is not a book of grammar. If that is what your school used to teach you English composition, your school was nuts.