12% of ebooks are self-published; most are rubbish, claims editor

[hidari]

Originally Posted by Gardenman

teh603 said

And I'm referring to the fact that "correct" English grammar is actually quite burdensome and doesn't usually help with understanding.


That is 100 percent wrong.

No, I would say you are wrong. I have read many a book in English with mistakes and still enjoyed the story/novel. Have done so in French and Spanish too. I still use a toilet even if it is not spotless... I imagine most people do. Unless you like to use a Microscope when you use a toilet..

[BeccaPrice]

Originally Posted by teh603

And I'm referring to the fact that "correct" English grammar is actually quite burdensome and doesn't usually help with understanding.

For example, correct grammar means you aren't supposed to overuse the word "said." But as writers, we're told that "said" is transparent. We're ultimately using incorrect grammar, because it works better than correct grammar. And then how many times do we begin a sentence with a conjunction? Dangle participles or prepositions? Use a double negative in dialog or contraction anywhere? Begin a quote as a fresh sentence instead of forcing a comma at the end of the previous one?

Most of the things I listed up there are nitpicky details of correct grammar, which don't actually help with understanding.

Not using "said" is a writing convention, not a grammar issue.

That aside, I don't understand your first paragraph. How is using correct grammar (which relates to sentence structure) burdensome?

On your other examples, all those things can be used to good effect, if you know what you're doing, and why you're using them that way. And you can use double negatives or other bad grammar in dialog easily, if that's the best way to get across the personality of the character speaking.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

I would love it if there was a good way to filter for the indie authors who are the midlist equivalents. Honestly, I would. I don't have a solution for that but it would be nice for folks.

Have you tried looking a bit?

But seriously, some people in this thread make it seem as if great books just magically appeared in front of their eyeballs with the old system. When the truth is that they've always had an external "system" to help them choose books--whether it was best seller lists, displays at their favorite bookstore/library, recommendations from friends/bookclubs, reviews from newspapers/magazines (or just plain online research). A system they spent a lot of time and energy developing. A complex system that has become almost transparent and effortless to them.

So I GET that people might be loathe to alter or step away from that system (or develop a new one). I really do. But that in no way means that it's impossible to do so (with very successful, repeatable results). Or that such a new system could become just as effortless/transparent as the old one in time.

There's a difference between "I don't want to" and "it can't be done (and no one should want to)."

"It's all rubbish" is negated with the first indie book you find that isn't.

[Katsunami]

The entire problem of trying to find "only the good books" is that most people end up reading only the most popular books. Therefore, the already well-known writers will become bigger and bigger, and therefore, "better".

By just relegating all indie publishers to the trash, one is potentially discounting some very, very good authors, who happen to write just outside the "box", or "formula" that publishers require a book to be in to be deemed marketable. If a book isn't in there, they won't publish it, but that is not a proof that the book is bad. It may just be (very) different, and maybe it's very good, just because of that.

[BeccaPrice]

I write fairy tales. Each one of them has been polished like a gem, and every word gone over carefully. Fairy tales in general might not be to your taste. My fairy tales in particular might not be to your taste. But I defy you to tell me they're not well written.

I submitted some of them to agents. When the agent did respond, I was told that they were good, but that there is no market for fairy tales. I can understand that. But just because there is no market for what I write doesn't mean that they're bad or unworthy of respect.

[ProfCrash]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Have you tried looking a bit?

But seriously, some people in this thread make it seem as if great books just magically appeared in front of their eyeballs with the old system. When the truth is that they've always had an external "system" to help them choose books--whether it was best seller lists, displays at their favorite bookstore/library, recommendations from friends/bookclubs, reviews from newspapers/magazines (or just plain online research). A system they spent a lot of time and energy developing. A complex system that has become almost transparent and effortless to them.

So I GET that people might be loathe to alter or step away from that system (or develop a new one). I really do. But that in no way means that it's impossible to do so (with very successful, repeatable results). Or that such a new system could become just as effortless/transparent as the old one in time.

There's a difference between "I don't want to" and "it can't be done (and no one should want to)."

"It's all rubbish" is negated with the first indie book you find that isn't.

Nope but then again, I have been reading maninly books on sleeping, feeding, and raising a baby this past year so I have not been doing much looking for any type of book. I need to get back into the reading habit.

But I have asked many times, over many years, for people to provide me with places to go to find Indie books that have been vetted so that I would have a starting place. Many times people responded to said request with open hostility. The implication of my question was that there was too much crap to dredge through to find the gems and people were offended by that.

Truth be told, the few times I went Indie shopping I found crap, crap, and more crap and gave up.

So, if someone will provide a nice list of websites that I can use to look for good Indie authors I would happily search them out.

Becca: I have not looked at your work but if the fairy tales are appropriate for kids, I would be happy to do so in the near future. Well, a few years when baby boy is ready for that level of reading. Right now he loves it when we read to him and picks up a book to leaf through at all hours of the day. I love it.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

But I have asked many times, over many years, for people to provide me with places to go to find Indie books that have been vetted so that I would have a starting place. Many times people responded to said request with open hostility. The implication of my question was that there was too much crap to dredge through to find the gems and people were offended by that.

Truth be told, the few times I went Indie shopping I found crap, crap, and more crap and gave up.

Why do you need to go "Indie shopping" at all? When I buy a book, I do it based on recommendations from friends, or acquaintances, or websites I trust. If the book is cheap enough, and I like the blurb, I buy it. If the book is over my impulse threshold price-wise, I read through the reviews, and maybe download a sample. I have never consciously bought an "Indie" book just because it was Indie. What types of books do you like? If you don't have friends that you can get recommendations from, find a web site that is dedicated to books in the genre that you like. Or check out groups on Goodreads to find people that like the same types of books that you do.

All that being said, if you REALLY don't want to read self published books, then don't. Just don't belittle those of us who don't care who the publisher is.

Shari

[BearMountainBooks]

Caleb has a review site and reviews indie books. And is also on GR. I don't know if it's okay to post the link...so I'll post the blog:

http://papyrus.calebblake.net/

Another blog was Grace Krispy's Motherlode--apparently it's been taken down or expired now, but you can still find her reviews on GR. She was a member here for a long time as well.

https://www.goodreads.com/user/show/...5-grace-krispy

She has reviewed a couple of my books. She is critical but fair.

I review quite a few indie books on my blog. Most of the reviews you can find in the "under 5 dollar" tag because most are under 5 dollars:

http://www.bearmountainbooks.com/cat...bargain-reads/

They aren't all going to be Indies though and they are going to be the better ones I've found. The DNF are usually marked on GR, although I've only started adding some of them there. I go through a lot of books that are DNF and I've finally had to start keeping track. You are welcome to ask me if you have one you are considering. If I have an opinion on it, I'll give it. I also know about 4 others who read indie work and can ask around.

There's another review site that I just started following--so I haven't decided whether they are good fit for me, but they do review indie books:

http://openbooksociety.com/about-open-book-society/

She reviews everything (as do I) so it's not just indie work. She's a fairly critical reviewer from what I've seen so far (lots more 3 stars than 5).

I can list a few more if you tell me the genre you're interested in.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by shalym

Why do you need to go "Indie shopping" at all? When I buy a book, I do it based on recommendations from friends, or acquaintances, or websites I trust. If the book is cheap enough, and I like the blurb, I buy it. If the book is over my impulse threshold price-wise, I read through the reviews, and maybe download a sample. I have never consciously bought an "Indie" book just because it was Indie. What types of books do you like? If you don't have friends that you can get recommendations from, find a web site that is dedicated to books in the genre that you like. Or check out groups on Goodreads to find people that like the same types of books that you do.

All that being said, if you REALLY don't want to read self published books, then don't. Just don't belittle those of us who don't care who the publisher is.

Shari

I find myself indie shopping more these days because of one simple little fact: Price. That is not the way I used to shop for books, but it's become more...required of late. And even in that case, I'm not really shopping for indie books specifically--I'm actually shopping by price. I end up reading a lot of indie books because they are the ones in my current price range.

[ProfCrash]

Originally Posted by shalym

Why do you need to go "Indie shopping" at all? When I buy a book, I do it based on recommendations from friends, or acquaintances, or websites I trust. If the book is cheap enough, and I like the blurb, I buy it. If the book is over my impulse threshold price-wise, I read through the reviews, and maybe download a sample. I have never consciously bought an "Indie" book just because it was Indie. What types of books do you like? If you don't have friends that you can get recommendations from, find a web site that is dedicated to books in the genre that you like. Or check out groups on Goodreads to find people that like the same types of books that you do.

All that being said, if you REALLY don't want to read self published books, then don't. Just don't belittle those of us who don't care who the publisher is.

Shari

None of my friends or family read Indies so recommendations are not forthcoming from there. I am lazy and like to look through lists that other folks have generated. I do not like Goodreads, just really don't like it. I have not taken the time to play with the site because I don't have a ton of time. It is not intuitive to me.

I don't care who publishes what I read, I just want to read good stuff. When I was trying to look for Indie Authors a few years back, I was not able to find anything that was at a level that didn't drive me crazy.

I fail to see how anything above is belittles anyone.

[teh603]

Originally Posted by Catlady

I don't know where you got these baffling ideas.

Grammar and style are different things.

I went to one of the most expensive Christian schools in town. Everything I listed earlier was taught as grammar instead of style. People even got a week of grammar detention for failing a special test given every six weeks. Believe me, they were in-freaking-sane about making sure everyone knew the nitpicky details of grammar.

I don't even know what to make of some of your other examples; who told you you shouldn't use contractions? And I have no idea what you mean by "Begin a quote as a fresh sentence instead of forcing a comma at the end of the previous one."

Frankly, I think your understanding of grammar needs a lot of work.

Or maybe we were taught from different manuals of form, meant for different purposes? Everything we were taught was to "prepare" us for writing AP exam essays and papers for higher academia- and probably induce the odd nervous breakdown here and there. Either way, functional creative writing was never on the table.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

So, if someone will provide a nice list of websites that I can use to look for good Indie authors I would happily search them out.

There is no such nice list. Any more than there's a nice list that spits out quality traditionally published books you will be guaranteed to enjoy. You have to discover what works for you. You have to find your own filters for your own standards. Just like you did the first time around. There's resources and individuals on this very forum (some have posted in this very thread) that can point you toward authors/works they've found worthy.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by BeccaPrice

I write fairy tales. Each one of them has been polished like a gem, and every word gone over carefully. Fairy tales in general might not be to your taste. My fairy tales in particular might not be to your taste. But I defy you to tell me they're not well written.

I submitted some of them to agents. When the agent did respond, I was told that they were good, but that there is no market for fairy tales. I can understand that. But just because there is no market for what I write doesn't mean that they're bad or unworthy of respect.

I wouldn't pay any attention to those who say there is no market for Fairy Tales Becca. They said the same thing when L. Frank Baum wrote "The Wizard of Oz" and look what happened there.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

I need to get back into the reading habit.

The reading habit is worn by the nuns of the almighty eBook.

[Prestidigitweeze]

Originally Posted by teh603

I went to one of the most expensive Christian schools in town. Everything I listed earlier was taught as grammar instead of style. . . . Everything we were taught was to "prepare" us for writing AP exam essays and papers for higher academia- and probably induce the odd nervous breakdown here and there. Either way, functional creative writing was never on the table.

That makes more sense to me than anything else you've said on this thread so far: The problem isn't grammar itself but the repression that can come from personality-undermining ideas of correctness.

For you, adherence to grammar as it was taught -- as a form of rigidity -- stood in the way of self-expression. Freeing yourself from that meant thinking as you were taught not to think. It meant "functioning creatively" as opposed to surrendering to repression.

That is a unique and particular reason for resisting inherited ideas of grammar-as-style. Like others have said, much of what you associate with grammar sounds far more like style to me, but it also sounds as though, when the two were taught together, they made you feel anxious and merged into a single wagging finger.

It also sounds as though remembering not to use "poetic devices" might have been your way of absorbing the tenet that one should not revert to poetic meter unconsciously (see famous examples of Dickens breaking into iambic pentameter for pages without knowing it).

But even in that case, the original idea was to cultivate awareness of the rhythm of one's sentences, not threaten students with dogma for lapsing into singsong.