Breaking down the sci-fi genre

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by bill_mchale

Well, lets keep in mind that older is a relative term when we are talking about stars. Our Sun is roughly 5 billion years old, the Universe is about 14 billion. But the stars that cause Supernovas actually have much shorter life spans (at least the ones that are not caused by white dwarfs in binary star systems). Thus I suspect there well could be stars that are 7-8 billion years old that have everything that is needed to form life.

Also lets keep in mind, that life might develop towards intelligence more quickly than it did on Earth. We have had life on Earth for at least a 3.4 billion years, and complex life has existed for the last 600 million or so. I think there is probably enough time that it would be quite remarkable if we were among the very first civilizations in the galaxy... unless of course we are unique.

There are so many variables involved, from the state of the local galaxy (free of damaging influences like quasars and supernovas), the state of the system (free of damaging radiation or constant bombardment), the state of the planet (the right mix of chemicals, the right mix of energy, lack of damaging radiation), and the state of the life (enough space and energy to freely and chaotically develop, lack of/ability to repel predators), and finally, a reason to develop beyond the status quo (avoiding predation, internal competition, environmental pressure)... and that's the short list. Many scientists have pointed out that the incredible balance of all those elements is needed for life to even begin, much less grow and thrive; and that the fact that humans have overcome those odds is one Godly finger short of a miracle.

Given all that, I could easily believe that humans are unique in the galaxy, and that life itself is extremely rare. I could also believe that life might be much more resilient and populous in this universe, but the ability to raise to an intelligent state is exceedingly less likely than life's reaching a comfortable stagnation well before intelligence or civilization is reached... IOW, lots of plants, a few simple animals, and that's about it.

Say... have we "broken down" this genre sufficiently enough yet?

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

Say... have we "broken down" this genre sufficiently enough yet?

There's a lot of territory to mine...
...and lot of ways to slice-n-dice it.

But digressions beckon.
(And new releases to read...)

[Penforhire]

Steve, wait, have we talked yet about how time travel SF is really fantasy? Actually reading The Doomsday Book right now and it brings that thought to mind. We have no scientific basis I've seen for actual physical travel (my body goes there) into the past. So why isn't time travel categorized as fantasy?

[kennyc]

I think it is, in the same way as FTL travel (and perhaps even related as per Mr. Einstein).

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Penforhire

Steve, wait, have we talked yet about how time travel SF is really fantasy? Actually reading The Doomsday Book right now and it brings that thought to mind. We have no scientific basis I've seen for actual physical travel (my body goes there) into the past. So why isn't time travel categorized as fantasy?

Personally, I do consider time-travel stories to be fantasy for the same reason I consider FTL stories fantasy: It may be possible, but only with stellar-scale command of energy that humans will never hope to have.

Unfortunately, it's become one of those "We've used it for so long that we just don't have to explain it" tropes that SF has been saddled with, and (IMO) robs SF of some of its credibility in the process.

[kennyc]

And what about English as the Universal language....

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by kennyc

And what about English as the Universal language....

Good one: The "universal language" idea has changed over the years to be whatever country was dominant on the global scale at the time; it just so happens that English has been the dominant language on the global scale in the last half-century, so it is presently considered to be the "universal language." If, say, China becomes a stronger world player, we could see Chinese becoming the "universal language" (Joss Whedon's Firefly is a great TV example of the result... smart guy, that Whedon)... or if, say, Germany assumes dominance of global trade because of some invention or legal process favorable to all, we could all end up using Dutch as our "universal language."

Or, nations could eventually settle on one "universal language" that will stick, and everyone will use it out of expediency of its already being in-place.

Bottom line, it's impossible to say how long English will remain "universal," or what might replace it, or when.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

Unfortunately, it's become one of those "We've used it for so long that we just don't have to explain it" tropes that SF has been saddled with, and (IMO) robs SF of some of its credibility in the process.

Since the purpose of SF is not to predict the future I wonder what kind of credibility it can loose just by having time travel?

[bill_mchale]

Originally Posted by Penforhire

Steve, wait, have we talked yet about how time travel SF is really fantasy? Actually reading The Doomsday Book right now and it brings that thought to mind. We have no scientific basis I've seen for actual physical travel (my body goes there) into the past. So why isn't time travel categorized as fantasy?

Actually, we have no experimental basis for going back in time, but we do have a scientific basis. According to Einstein, pretty much every method of FTL travel allows traveling backwards in time for at least some inertial reference frames.

Now a bunch of theoretical physicists (probably because they are afraid they might at some point go back in time and become their own grandparents, or other such silliness ), conjecture that the Universe will have some feedback mechanism that will destroy any actual attempts to travel in time (and therefore to violate causality), but that is all it really is, conjecture since causality is merely assumed to exist and has never been proven.

--
Bill

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by kennyc

And what about English as the Universal language....

Harry Harrison used Esperanto as the universal language in some of his works. (The stainless steel rat books, I know; maybe others.) In fact, some of his aliens *also* spoke Esperanto because they heard humans speaking it and decided that it was the most rational language, so they adopted it, too.)

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by bill_mchale

Now a bunch of theoretical physicists (probably because they are afraid they might at some point go back in time and become their own grandparents, or other such silliness ), conjecture that the Universe will have some feedback mechanism that will destroy any actual attempts to travel in time (and therefore to violate causality), but that is all it really is, conjecture since causality is merely assumed to exist and has never been proven.

I think the power requirement is the simple and elegant feedback mechanism preventing us from journeying back into time.

[bill_mchale]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

I think the power requirement is the simple and elegant feedback mechanism preventing us from journeying back into time.

Maybe, but that is not what Kip Thorne and Stephen Hawking were talking about in their popular books that dealt with the subject. For one thing, we know that FTL happens in the real universe (or are at least reasonably sure) via the expansion of the Universe. However there are no causality problems because the regions are causally and observationally isolated from each other... being that they are at the far ends of the observable Universe (and not in either regions observable universe).

--
Bill

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

We know that the velocity of an object impacts its impression of time (how time applies to it), that rate changing as we approach light speed. The same effect should apply at the ends of the universe, if expansion truly means everything is moving faster, and some particles can travel faster than light. But this applies to moving forwards through time at varying rates, not in traveling backwards in time.

I don't believe any proof establishes a way that a single particle, much less an entire body, could move backwards in time; existing proofs suggest we could move more slowly through time (like a pebble in a creek, maintaining its position as the water flows past it), but staying in-place and allowing time to catch up to you is not the same as actually moving backwards.

[bill_mchale]

Well, FTL travel as it applies two objects at extreme ends of the Universe does not involve velocity in the Newtonian sense. Literally they are traveling apart faster than light but they are doing it because more space is being created between them and since the amount of space being created between two objects is directly dependent on how far apart they are (roughly shown via the Hubble Constant), the farther apart they are, the faster they travel in relation to each other.

Now, since it doesn't involve real velocity, the fact that these objects are travelling apart faster than the speed of light doesn't violate relativity. And since they are casually isolated, it doesn't allow time travel. However, if (and I grant it is a big if) this could be used as the basis of a space drive (as proposed by Miguel Alcubierre), then things get a lot more dicey. If an object can travel FTL in local space, then there will be inertial reference frames where that object is observed to travel backwards in time. In fact, you don't even need an object, you just need information to travel FTL. Never fight a duel at relativistic velocities with a weapon that travels FTL... the results will be very, very confusing.

--
Bill

[Penforhire]

I did think the issue was mass. I can see scrying into the future or past, pure information. But physical travel still seems like fantasy.

Now, OTOH, after the singularity and we're all on-line I can see "traveling" back by rebooting or archive loading.