why the fuss over epub?

[thebestjeter]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I was asking a specific person and never did get an answer. The answer you are quoting is from someone else. I never said ePub was perfect. Please reread my question.

The point is that Mobipocket has something that ePub doesn't have and that fact answers your question. ePub doesn't have dictionary standard definition and Mobi does.

[afv011]

Originally Posted by thebestjeter

The point is that Mobipocket has something that ePub doesn't have and that fact answers your question. ePub doesn't have dictionary standard definition and Mobi does.

Yes, it has stuff that ePub does not have, like dictionary and a pile of shortcomings

[kranu]

Originally Posted by karunaji

No, it doesn't deter crackers. It only deters a lot of legitimate customers. The procedure is too difficult for a general person that many simply don't care and buy a Kindle instead.

That's not the process I was talking about. I was talking about the Adobe Creative Suite. It isn't complicated for a general person to connect to the internet and type in a serial number.

I think that any serious problems to a reader due to DRM is only going to change a user's moral stance regarding the sharing.

How is the above pose serious problems?

That 1% will find a way to remove DRM in either case. Most pirated books are scanned pdf copies, so in the extreme case one could make a series of screenshots.

It's better that it is screenshots/scanned copies. Screenshots will usually have some other sort of annoying stuff added to it; serving as a constant reminder that the book is stolen (coworkers see it etc). Same thing with scanned copies.

So, if people are following the rules then replace DRM with a legal notice that sharing is bad. It looks that you agree with me.

How did you jump from what I had said to this? Many people are following the rules; I never said people are following the rules.

[kranu]

Originally Posted by jocampo

I don't share the same opinion.

If I buy an ebook, I should be able to do with that ebook whatever I want, as long as I don't make additional copies of the same book. As a matter of fact, I should be able to sell my own copy if I want, like a regular paper book, why not? I paid for it already, we live in a free world.

With DRM protections, I am not able to read my books on a different device (forget about the format for a minute) So if 1 or 2 years I decide Sony readers are a better choice for me, if I don't break the DRM encryption I won't be able to read my existing books on that new device. I am stuck. It is not because is X or Y format, is because the encryption does not allow me to do that. Take for example B&N books. Yeah, they are ePub files. Can I read those on my Kindle? No. And it is not because the file format, it is because the DRM encryption does not allow me to use Calibre, convert, and move.

I don't need a cop or a higher entity telling me what I can do and what I cannot. Remember alcohol? It was banned and illegal. Of course is not the same, but did not stop people from drinking. DRM is not stopping people from breaking it. There are no statistics about that. And the reason is simple, because people don't want to reveal that, it is still illegal on some countries. But it is happening.

The whole DRM stuff is not to benefit end users, is promoting or helping companies to establish an eco-system where people will have to decide which one is better: B&N, Sony, Apple, Amazon. It should not be like that.

I don't ask permission for lending a book to a friend. I should not ask permission for lending an ebook either. And with today's technology, it is also easy to make photocopies of a paper book, so there is not much difference, only that one is digital.

It's not that each company collaborates and decides to use their own formats and DRM. It's that every company wants to make their own format the standard. See: http://xkcd.com/927/

As for not being able to share with a friend, I sympathize. I never said that the current method of DRM is great. I just believe that it's better than no DRM at all.

The ideal DRM would protect products, without hindering legitimate users. Unfortunately, there is no foreseeable option for this.

[mbovenka]

Originally Posted by karunaji

But currently there are more speakers with English as a second language than there are native English speakers in the world. And even if they rarely use paper dictionaries, they would surely appreciate an e-reader with a dictionary function enabled.

Quite so. English is not my first language, and although I only very seldom need a dictionary (I'm at the stage where anything less than a Concise Oxford or Chambers is pretty much useless to me, and I would kill for something like a Websters Unabridged or Shorter Oxford, or, dream of dreams, the OED itself, as a Kindle dictionary...), I certainly find the dictionary of my Kindle very useful when I do use it. Which is often just to check whether I inferred the meaning of a word correctly from context, exactly *because* it's so easy to use. I have replaced the standard Oxford American Dictionary by the Chambers Dictionary, which is the best I have found.

And I have found my thumb twitching on occasion when reading a pbook

[Wordcrasher]

Originally Posted by mbovenka

And I have found my thumb twitching on occasion when reading a pbook

That happens to me too !

[karunaji]

Originally Posted by kranu

That's not the process I was talking about. I was talking about the Adobe Creative Suite. It isn't complicated for a general person to connect to the internet and type in a serial number.

Are we still talking about e-books?

It's better that it is screenshots/scanned copies. Screenshots will usually have some other sort of annoying stuff added to it; serving as a constant reminder that the book is stolen (coworkers see it etc). Same thing with scanned copies.

Not if it necessitates people to steal because they cannot load their legally acquired epub books on Kindle or vice versa.

How did you jump from what I had said to this? Many people are following the rules; I never said people are following the rules.

I believe that most people follow reasonable rules. On the other hand, if you think that your customers are incorrigible law-breakers then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy and they will become thieves.

As an example: Even the London looters spared the bookstores. I think that people who read books are in general more educated and honest than those who mostly download music and movies from torrents.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by afv011

Yes, it has stuff that ePub does not have, like dictionary and a pile of shortcomings

That is one steaming pile of shortcomings. Pretty stinky too.

[jocampo]

Originally Posted by kranu

It's not that each company collaborates and decides to use their own formats and DRM. It's that every company wants to make their own format the standard. See: http://xkcd.com/927/

As for not being able to share with a friend, I sympathize. I never said that the current method of DRM is great. I just believe that it's better than no DRM at all.

The ideal DRM would protect products, without hindering legitimate users. Unfortunately, there is no foreseeable option for this.

Companies don't want to make their own standards. We basically have two main ebook formats: ePub and Mobi. Most. important and biggest online book retailers stick to those, they are just putting a DRM protection on top of that, that's where I disagree.

An ideal DRM schema would be that one that can identify you as buyer or owner of a digital book without blocking you from being able to convert or read it on different readers.

Take for example music. We are able to play our mp3s on any player, does not matter if the player is a Sony or an iPod. We can play them regardless of the brand, don't we?

O'reilly sells book without DRM protection. Big companies can do the same if they are willing to cooperate and help the customer.

There are no statistics or real numbers showing DRM as effective tool against copyright issues.

Having DRM is not better than not having one, is worse. It is not avoiding piracy but making difficult to read ebooks without hardware or reader restrictions. It is affecting users, you ... me ...

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by kranu

As for not being able to share with a friend, I sympathize. I never said that the current method of DRM is great. I just believe that it's better than no DRM at all.

For whom? Do you really believe that DRM is *increasing* sales?

Do you have any evidence that books sell better with DRM than without it? -- Would Stephen King drop off the bestseller lists faster if his books were offered without DRM?

The ideal DRM would protect products, without hindering legitimate users. Unfortunately, there is no foreseeable option for this.

So, you've imagined a fantasy product that would be A Good Thing, and are claiming that, because you have imagined that, the current non-fantasy versions with flaws must also be good things?

[kranu]

Originally Posted by karunaji

Are we still talking about e-books?

The entire time, the discussion has been about DRM, which includes ebooks.

Not if it necessitates people to steal because they cannot load their legally acquired epub books on Kindle or vice versa.

That's a new one!

'I needed to steal this movie because the BluRay version that I bought did not work with my DVD player!'

I believe that most people follow reasonable rules. On the other hand, if you think that your customers are incorrigible law-breakers then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy and they will become thieves.

As an example: Even the London looters spared the bookstores. I think that people who read books are in general more educated and honest than those who mostly download music and movies from torrents.

The keyword here is most. Contrary to what many people irrationally decide, DRM is not designed to give customers a hard time. Rather, it's designed to give illegitimate customers a hard time. The side effect is that it can hinder legitimate customers if badly designed.

[kranu]

Originally Posted by jocampo

Companies don't want to make their own standards. We basically have two main ebook formats: ePub and Mobi. Most. important and biggest online book retailers stick to those, they are just putting a DRM protection on top of that, that's where I disagree.

An ideal DRM schema would be that one that can identify you as buyer or owner of a digital book without blocking you from being able to convert or read it on different readers.

I meant that companies want their own standard for DRM. Sorry for mixing up the format/DRM stuff. In my defense, they mean the same thing to me.

I agree that that would be the ideal DRM. I stated that in my very first post. However, how could you achieve this sort of DRM?

Take for example music. We are able to play our mp3s on any player, does not matter if the player is a Sony or an iPod. We can play them regardless of the brand, don't we?

Yes, most modern players can now handle MP3 format. However, the format that Apple iTunes gives music in is AAC (ext m4a). I'm not sure if you've noticed, but this music format cannot be played on the Kindle (unless you hack it with MPlayer, but that's besides the point).

There are no statistics or real numbers showing DRM as effective tool against copyright issues.

Having DRM is not better than not having one, is worse. It is not avoiding piracy but making difficult to read ebooks without hardware or reader restrictions. It is affecting users, you ... me ...

As you say, there are no real statistics. All that we have are conclusions we can draw from our own intuition. You may think that having DRM is not better than not having one. That's from a consumers standpoint. From the standpoint of most companies, it is better to have DRM than not to have it at all.

[karunaji]

Originally Posted by kranu

'I needed to steal this movie because the BluRay version that I bought did not work with my DVD player!'

Exactly. Thanks for supporting my point. It happens more often than you think. Even with software. My wife bought a game that required a CD put the drive for activation while playing. Until one day the CD drive broke from overheating and she couldn't play the game anymore. So she downloaded the activation crack and continued playing the game.

Contrary to what many people irrationally decide, DRM is not designed to give customers a hard time.

I don't believe that's what people are thinking. They know very well that DRM isn't intended to give them a hard time but that's just the fact how it is.

Rather, it's designed to give illegitimate customers a hard time.

What do you mean by illegitimate customers? Is it if you bought a book that is sold only in certain region by pretending to be resident of this region? Or one who bought a book legally and then removed DRM illegally? I can't really comprehend the concept of "illegitimate customer" because blaming the customer sounds so Soviet.

[jocampo]

Originally Posted by kranu

From the standpoint of most companies, it is better to have DRM than not to have it at all.

Right, and we both, most here in MR, are consumers. I want free DRM books. I like freedom, in terms of DRM. I don't care about the format, we have Calibre for that.

And I keep my position. DRM schemes are not good for end users and are not actually stoping or avoiding piracy. A watermark style protection (like your name printed on each page) looks like a smarter way to me, without forcing you to keep using the same ereader all the time.

Do you really think all these DRM stuff is to minimize piracy? please ... this is about ecosystems and money, and Apple to force users to read on Apple readers, B&N on Nooks, and Amazon books on Kindle related apps and hardware, with the advantage that Amazon has a bigger selection and better support for their customers (notice I'm talking about DRM books, I can read free mobi books on my Kindle already)

[tlrowley]

Originally Posted by kranu

Yes, most modern players can now handle MP3 format. However, the format that Apple iTunes gives music in is AAC (ext m4a). I'm not sure if you've noticed, but this music format cannot be played on the Kindle (unless you hack it with MPlayer, but that's besides the point).

It can be played on the Kindle if you convert it to mp3 - exactly the situation we're talking about - DRM-free books that we can convert as we wish.