Britain INCREASES tax on ebooks - Page 10

GeoffC · 07-08-2010, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tompe

I have not claimed anything. I do not think it is anything that should be valued on a fair/unfair scale. So i try to understand why so many people here often use fair/unfair valuations.

If I remember it was you that claimed it was unfair so why is it unfair?

I only meant fairness in terms of treating the same item in the same way. It is a book, why should paper format attract a different rate of VAT to that of an electronic format.

tompe · 07-08-2010, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by astra

Because it is a book. It doesn't matter whether you buy paper back, hard back, or leather bound edition of a book. So, why different rules apply to yet one more format of the same text? It is not like it has changed from text to audio or visual interpretation of the same story.
A book is still a book. Doesn't matter whether it is a text book, paper back, rough binding, ePub, hard back or leather bound edition.

Why not have different prices? Why has this anything to do with fair/unfair? I really do not get how people think here. As a customer you can buy any format you choose so the difference in price to get the text is irrelevant.

tompe · 07-08-2010, 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeoffC

I only meant fairness in terms of treating the same item in the same way. It is a book, why should paper format attract a different rate of VAT to that of an electronic format.

You said it was with respect to the customer and all customers are treated equal.

Now you seem to say it is unfair to the book.

astra · 07-08-2010, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tompe

Why not have different prices? Why has this anything to do with fair/unfair? I really do not get how people think here. As a customer you can buy any format you choose so the difference in price to get the text is irrelevant.

Are we talking about prices or VAT application?

My comment was about VAT.

GeoffC · 07-08-2010, 05:17 AM

customers have a choice between a purchase of an item that attracts 2 different rates of tax.
assuming the cost is the same, the cheaper item will be the one with the lower tax rate.

the argument is why should the same product be treated differently just because it's in a different wrapper....

tompe · 07-08-2010, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by astra

Are we talking about prices or VAT application?

My comment was about VAT.

I am talking about VAT. Diffferent VAT rate give different prices.

GeoffC · 07-08-2010, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by astra

Are we talking about prices or VAT application?

My comment was about VAT.

My comment was also with reference to the application of VAT .

GeoffC · 07-08-2010, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tompe

I am talking about VAT. Diffferent VAT rate give different prices.

I thought that was what we were discussing ...

tompe · 07-08-2010, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeoffC

the argument is why should the same product be treated differently just because it's in a different wrapper....

And this happens all the time so why not? And why can you apply fair/unfair to this situation? And especially unfair seems wrong to apply since the customers are treated the same way.

GeoffC · 07-08-2010, 05:26 AM

Does it happen all the time ?

I'm not too sure I can come up with a similar situation, but I am willing to be proved incorrect.

omk3 · 07-08-2010, 05:57 AM

Why is the argument about one word again?

Okay maybe it isn't unfair. But it doesn't seem to make any sense.
I assume the rationale behind not taxing books is to make them accessible to the whole population. There is no distinction between paperbacks and hardcovers (which might be considered a "luxury" item), so what makes an ebook so different? I believe it's grouped with other digital media just because no one thought about it much. In an age where almost everything goes digital, it makes no sense to make distinctions between physical and digital products, when the actual use is the same. And if you do, I feel that you would have to discourage the use of extra materials, like paper in this case, instead of encouraging it at the cost of a digital product. But that's my opinion.

What would make sense is one of these:
a) tax all forms of books the same - either tax them all, or have them all tax-free
or
b) distinguish between "regular" and "luxury" versions of books. I am not entirely sure where ebooks should go, but hardcovers, leather-bound volumes etc would have VAT, while paperbacks wouldn't.

Distinguishing between books on a physical medium and digital books seems just arbitrary.

astra · 07-08-2010, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tompe

And this happens all the time so why not? And why can you apply fair/unfair to this situation? And especially unfair seems wrong to apply since the customers are treated the same way.

What does happen all the time? Price difference? Yes.
I am not talking about end price.
I am talking about the application of VAT. Apparently I undertood GeoffC correctly. He didn't mention the end price. He said it ia unfair that paper back has zero VAT and ePub has 17.5%.
I absolutely agree with him. It is unfair. Hence my post:

Quote:

Because it is a book. It doesn't matter whether you buy paper back, hard back, or leather bound edition of a book. So, why different rules apply to yet one more format of the same text? It is not like it has changed from text to audio or visual interpretation of the same story.
A book is still a book. Doesn't matter whether it is a text book, paper back, rough binding, ePub, hard back or leather bound edition.

It has nothing to do with the end price. Leatherbound edition of The Gathering Storm (Wheel of Time) cost me £100 vs. £12 hard back edition. We are not discussing that right now.

murraypaul · 07-08-2010, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by omk3

Distinguishing between books on a physical medium and digital books seems just arbitrary.

It is a tax system, almost by definition arbitrary

If VAT was being created today, I'm pretty sure books wouldn't be exempt, it is a historical oddity that they are.

GeoffC · 07-08-2010, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by murraypaul

It is a tax system, almost by definition arbitrary

If VAT was being created today, I'm pretty sure books wouldn't be exempt, it is a historical oddity that they are.

yep ....

Sweetpea · 07-08-2010, 08:17 AM

It's a historical oddity that ebooks aren't books, but services. Only because they wanted a quick fix (grabbing action) when MP3's became more popular...

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07-08-2010, 05:17 AM	#140
GeoffC Chocolate Grasshopper ... Posts: 27,599 Karma: 20821184 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Scotland Device: Muse HD , Cybook Gen3 , Pocketbook 302 (Black) , Nexus 10: wife has PW	customers have a choice between a purchase of an item that attracts 2 different rates of tax. assuming the cost is the same, the cheaper item will be the one with the lower tax rate. the argument is why should the same product be treated differently just because it's in a different wrapper....

07-08-2010, 05:26 AM	#145
GeoffC Chocolate Grasshopper ... Posts: 27,599 Karma: 20821184 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Scotland Device: Muse HD , Cybook Gen3 , Pocketbook 302 (Black) , Nexus 10: wife has PW	Does it happen all the time ? I'm not too sure I can come up with a similar situation, but I am willing to be proved incorrect.

07-08-2010, 05:57 AM	#146
omk3 Wizard Posts: 1,454 Karma: 37243 Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Europe Device: pocketbook 360, kindle 4	Why is the argument about one word again? Okay maybe it isn't unfair. But it doesn't seem to make any sense. I assume the rationale behind not taxing books is to make them accessible to the whole population. There is no distinction between paperbacks and hardcovers (which might be considered a "luxury" item), so what makes an ebook so different? I believe it's grouped with other digital media just because no one thought about it much. In an age where almost everything goes digital, it makes no sense to make distinctions between physical and digital products, when the actual use is the same. And if you do, I feel that you would have to discourage the use of extra materials, like paper in this case, instead of encouraging it at the cost of a digital product. But that's my opinion. What would make sense is one of these: a) tax all forms of books the same - either tax them all, or have them all tax-free or b) distinguish between "regular" and "luxury" versions of books. I am not entirely sure where ebooks should go, but hardcovers, leather-bound volumes etc would have VAT, while paperbacks wouldn't. Distinguishing between books on a physical medium and digital books seems just arbitrary.

07-08-2010, 08:17 AM	#150
Sweetpea Grand Sorcerer Posts: 9,707 Karma: 32763414 Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Krewerd Device: Pocketbook Inkpad 4 Color; Samsung Galaxy Tab S6	It's a historical oddity that ebooks aren't books, but services. Only because they wanted a quick fix (grabbing action) when MP3's became more popular...