Philosophy: books and discussion

[TimMason]

I would put him on a bicycle without pedals and when he has learned to stay in dynamic equilibrium - for one so smart it will take less then 10 minutes - I would put the pedals on. I could do that without a single word spoken.

You do that and then tell him to get from Porte Maillot to the Arc de Triomphe and you're an assassin.

[beppe]

Originally Posted by TimMason

You do that and then tell him to get from Porte Maillot to the Arc de Triomphe and you're an assassin.

toi meme

[beppe]

Originally Posted by TimMason

You do that and then tell him to get from Porte Maillot to the Arc de Triomphe and you're an assassin.

and to make it more spicy, with a half baguette under his armpit!

Come on, not only those guys were smart, but they possessed, on their estates, scores of "coworkers" to test new things for them. It was Socrates that was poor.

[troymc]

Originally Posted by beppe

and to make it more spicy, with a half baguette under his armpit!

Come on, not only those guys were smart, but they possessed, on their estates, scores of "coworkers" to test new things for them. It was Socrates that was poor.

Poor? He served as a hoplite during the Peloponnesian wars. From my understanding that would put him at the equivalent of upper-middle class at least (he would have had to buy his own weapons/armour.) He was also a property owner with a wife and at least 2 sons - and supported them all for decades with no occupation to speak of (granted they weren't dressed in finery.)

Of course he might be considered poor when compared with the people he hung out with. Plato, among others, was from an aristocratic family.

And there was some story about him losing some money in an investment deal.


Troy

[TimMason]

So here's what we've got: we write a bike city survival manual in Attic Greek, ship it back to Plato in a time-machine, he reads the manual, teaches it to one his slaves, then sends her back in the time machine. If she can get from Porte Maillot to the Arc de Triomphe on a Paris city council bike without mishap, we conclude that technical knowledge is universal and cross-culturally tanslatable.

P.S. We can give her a sack of chouquettes for the journey.

[beppe]

Originally Posted by troymc

Poor? He served as a hoplite during the Peloponnesian wars. From my understanding that would put him at the equivalent of upper-middle class at least (he would have had to buy his own weapons/armour.) He was also a property owner with a wife and at least 2 sons - and supported them all for decades with no occupation to speak of (granted they weren't dressed in finery.)

Of course he might be considered poor when compared with the people he hung out with. Plato, among others, was from an aristocratic family.

And there was some story about him losing some money in an investment deal.


Troy

Russell writes that he was undoubtedly an Athenian citizen of moderate means. The undoubtedly refers to the uncertainty whether we know very little or a great deal.

Always according to Russell he was always dressed in shabby old clothes, and went barefoot everywhere.

I think it is from these very fragments that I drew the word poor.

But Plato would have liked very much to be shown how to ride a bicycle. That was a great image you built. There is no reason to kill him in the traffic. I would take him on the Esplanade and he would marvel at the Tour, and maybe have a beer with us, a Pelfort brune. And accustomed to resinous wine in which they grated goat cheese, he would certainly drink at least two.

[beppe]

Originally Posted by TimMason

So here's what we've got: we write a bike city survival manual in Attic Greek, ship it back to Plato in a time-machine, he reads the manual, teaches it to one his slaves, then sends her back in the time machine. If she can get from Porte Maillot to the Arc de Triomphe on a Paris city council bike without mishap, we conclude that technical knowledge is universal and cross-culturally translatable.

P.S. We can give her a sack of chouquettes for the journey.

You are hang out with writing. I bet you have never consulted a single manual of any gadget. We get Plato on the Esplanade and ask him to bring with him a pretty coworker so you can do with her the "teaching" and I take Plato around with his assistant. Then we all go and have refreshments at the Cafè Commerce. My treat.

Translate? Look he is going to bring his best coworker, just small eye movements will be enough for you to have her completely convinced. Strictly cross-culturally.

[beppe]

One concept that is going on since we have traces of a culture (in strict sense), and for that I mean the Paleolithic, alas for you materialistic adepts, is the cult of the Mother.
A part from being openly venerated as such in a small localized underpopulated little place like India, she is covertly venerated by us Catholic under the effigy of the Mother of God. They count that more than 70% of the actual devotion goes to her. Why? Certainly 50000 years might have left some imprinting. It is about 2000 generations. While Nietzsche died a little more than 4 generations ago.

Now, do not look at it just as a superstition. If you do that you will miss the whole point. It is the life giving. Any body who has not been involved in the actual process of it, can only imagine it, or read about it, and quite smoothly just reduce it to some species conservation impulsion. Can a half liter bottle contain one liter of wine?

[troymc]

Originally Posted by beppe

One concept that is going on since we have traces of a culture (in strict sense), and for that I mean the Paleolithic, alas for you materialistic adepts, is the cult of the Mother.
A part from being openly venerated as such in a small localized underpopulated little place like India, she is covertly venerated by us Catholic under the effigy of the Mother of God. They count that more than 70% of the actual devotion goes to her. Why? Certainly 50000 years might have left some imprinting. It is about 2000 generations. While Nietzsche died a little more than 4 generations ago.

Now, do not look at it just as a superstition. If you do that you will miss the whole point. It is the life giving. Any body who has not been involved in the actual process of it, can only imagine it, or read about it, and quite smoothly just reduce it to some species conservation impulsion.

This has always interested me. Do you have any suggested references for good starting points?

Originally Posted by beppe

Can a half liter bottle contain one liter of wine?

Depends on how much sipping is done during the pouring!


Troy

[beppe]

Originally Posted by troymc

This has always interested me. Do you have any suggested references for good starting points?


Depends on how much sipping is done during the pouring!


Troy

Any Anthropology Handbook

My entry point on the subject was The White Goddess: a Historical Grammar of Poetic Myth (1948) by Robert Graves. The title says it all.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by TimMason

When we attempt to posit a universal rule, or to identify a universal basis for rules, we are stepping outside the realm of the possible.

Wouldn't "actions have consequences" be a universal moral basis for rules?

[TGS]

Originally Posted by beppe

One concept that is going on since we have traces of a culture (in strict sense), and for that I mean the Paleolithic, alas for you materialistic adepts, is the cult of the Mother.
A part from being openly venerated as such in a small localized underpopulated little place like India, she is covertly venerated by us Catholic under the effigy of the Mother of God. They count that more than 70% of the actual devotion goes to her. Why? Certainly 50000 years might have left some imprinting. It is about 2000 generations. While Nietzsche died a little more than 4 generations ago.

Your argument (suggestion/contention/observation - I'm not sure what the status of the above passage is), is that a lot of people have believed something for a long time, therefore...therefore what? We should immerse ourselves in the same antediluvian fog? It must be true?

Originally Posted by beppe

Now, do not look at it just as a superstition. If you do that you will miss the whole point. It is the life giving. Any body who has not been involved in the actual process of it, can only imagine it, or read about it, and quite smoothly just reduce it to some species conservation impulsion.

No one who has not taken mescalin and seen the spirits of the cactus enter a man's body and transform him into a coyote can only imagine it, or read about it and quite easily reduce it to some drug-induced hallucination. So what? They are probably right to do so. To think otherwise is simply to build immunity to scrutiny into your mythology - which many systems of myth do, but that doesn't make them true.

Originally Posted by beppe

Can a half liter bottle contain one liter of wine?

No, not unless you are playing fast and loose with the terms you are employing.

[TGS]

Originally Posted by beppe

Any Anthropology Handbook

My entry point on the subject was The White Goddess: a Historical Grammar of Poetic Myth (1948) by Robert Graves. The title says it all.

Ah, Robert Graves, a world renowned anthropologist!

[TimMason]

Beppe, Robert Graves made stuff up.

Large female figurines, such as those at Catal Hoyuk, have been taken as proof of the longevity of the Mother Goddess. But the people who are closest to those figurines no longer believe that they represent a deity, or that they were objects of worship. You can't get there from here (unless you want to believe that Robert Crumb is her most recent secret priest).



P.S. I *always* read the manual.

[TimMason]

Wouldn't "actions have consequences" be a universal moral basis for rules?

Not really. Some moral dilemmas are over 'right thinking' (or thought crimes if you prefer). My coveting my neighbour's ass makes no difference to the neighbour or to his ass, but it's still a sin, according to Christian doctrine.

Moreover, the consequences of a morally bad action may be positive. That doesn't make it all right. Does it?

'Said I shot a man named Gray, took his wife to Italy
She inherited a million bucks, and when she died, it came to me.
I can't help it if I'm lucky.'