![]() |
#631 | |
Big Ears
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 191
Karma: 2229
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Pontoise, France
Device: Onyx Boox 60, iPad
|
Quote:
Take one example of how our brain/body system interacts with its environment: the blood feud. We know that for millennia human beings have acted upon the principle that injury done to one member of a group is injury done to all, and that there is no distinction to be made between the aggressor and other members of his group. If a member of your family is injured by the member of another family, then all members of the other family are legitimate targets of your wrath. Now, there are excellent biological reasons why this should be so (you may look at Daly and Wilson's book 'Homicide' for a rehearsal of these). But I have to doubt that anyone on this list would accept a moral principle that says you have a right to harm your neighbour's son if your neighbour has harmed you. Similarly, female infanticide is a practice which can be shown to contribute to lineage fitness under certain circumstances (for a discussion of this, see Sarah Blaffer Hrdy's 'Mother Nature'). Indeed, it seems likely that any lineage which did *not* pursue this practice in the mountain areas of Northern India and of Pakistan would very quickly have lost its status, its lands, its means of subsistence. Once again, it seems unlikely that anyone here will uphold a principle that makes such behaviours morally desirable. One could continue with similar examples. It is very easy indeed to demonstrate that our species being cannot be, in and of itself, a guide to present moral practice. Last edited by TimMason; 07-05-2010 at 08:43 AM. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#632 |
Country Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 9,058
Karma: 7676767
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Denmark
Device: Liseuse: Irex DR800. PRS 505 in the house, and the missus has an iPad.
|
I mean by having a moral sense that there is a moral question to be asked - is this a good thing, a permissible thing, a bad thing. That different people ascribe a different moral value to an act demonstrates the exercise of moral sense, or moral reasoning, or ethical thinking - it doesn't mean that everyone has to agree. Ethics then becomes the discerning of the principles upon which such moral reasoning is based and the application of those principles to moral issues.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#633 | |
Wizard
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 4,395
Karma: 1358132
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: UK
Device: Palm TX, CyBook Gen3
|
Quote:
I wonder to what extent we need to think of ethics at all outside of philosophical debates. Applying Occam's Razor seems to eliminate it from any discourse about how people actually behave, or want to behave. Last edited by Sparrow; 07-05-2010 at 08:35 AM. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#634 | |
Country Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 9,058
Karma: 7676767
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Denmark
Device: Liseuse: Irex DR800. PRS 505 in the house, and the missus has an iPad.
|
Quote:
You might be right there too, but then we're not outside of philosophical discussion, we're on a discussion thread discussing philosophy. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#635 | |
The Dank Side of the Moon
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 35,904
Karma: 119230421
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Denver, CO
Device: Kindle2; Kindle Fire
|
Quote:
![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#636 | |
Junior Member
![]() Posts: 5
Karma: 22
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Here
Device: PocketBook 302
|
Hate+ Plato
Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#637 | |
Junior Member
![]() Posts: 5
Karma: 22
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Here
Device: PocketBook 302
|
Hate+ Plato
Quote:
Still even here Sókrates isn't shown as a bad character; I do not want you to be disappointed... |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#638 | |
Big Ears
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 191
Karma: 2229
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Pontoise, France
Device: Onyx Boox 60, iPad
|
Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#639 | ||
Wizard
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 4,395
Karma: 1358132
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: UK
Device: Palm TX, CyBook Gen3
|
Quote:
Quote:
A. Nothing. ![]() Last edited by Sparrow; 07-05-2010 at 09:02 AM. |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#640 |
Junior Member
![]() Posts: 5
Karma: 22
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Here
Device: PocketBook 302
|
Sorry for this double post. I shall learn how to "move" on forum. J.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#641 | |
Country Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 9,058
Karma: 7676767
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Denmark
Device: Liseuse: Irex DR800. PRS 505 in the house, and the missus has an iPad.
|
Quote:
That different groups of people make different judgments about the moral status of a behaviour - whether it's female infanticide, putting shampoo in rabbit's eyes or raising animals for the sole purpose of killing them - is, it seems to me, a reason to engage with the discourse, not a reason to declare the discourse invalid and/or impossible. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#642 | |
Enthusiast
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 40
Karma: 40000
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: State of New York
Device: Kobo Aura HD
|
Quote:
"The individual is filled with the unqualified desire of preserving his life, and of keeping it free from all pain, under which is included all want and privation. He wishes to have the greatest possible amount of pleasurable existence and every gratification he is capable of appreciating." "Egoism [self-interest]… will never be argued out of a person, as little as a cat can be talked out of her inclination for mice." Last edited by KevinBurke; 07-05-2010 at 09:42 AM. Reason: add quote |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#643 | |
Country Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 9,058
Karma: 7676767
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Denmark
Device: Liseuse: Irex DR800. PRS 505 in the house, and the missus has an iPad.
|
Quote:
Actually if philosophers do find the ultimate solution to all the ethical problems humanity will ever face then it can't be the case that nothing will happen because, ex hypothesi, philosophers have found the solution to all the ethical problems humanity will ever face, so that will have happened. The problem comes when philosophers continue to fail to make any meaningful contribution to solving even the smallest ethical problem that humanity faces - then nothing happens ![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#644 |
Big Ears
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 191
Karma: 2229
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Pontoise, France
Device: Onyx Boox 60, iPad
|
I have argued against there being anything that one could point to as a 'natural morality'. That does not mean that I believe that all talk of morality or ethics is useless - simply that without transcendence there is no natural morality.
This said, there clearly exists something that we can describe as 'morality' or 'talk about morality' or, despite what Sparrow says, morally motivated behaviour. Moreover, all this talk and much of this behaviour does have real-world effects. The modern state, its laws, its protections, are all in part shaped by moral concerns. It is because the church set out to curb the excesses of the medieval feudal lords that we today have societies in which the blood-feud is a thing of the past, and in which infanticide is far more rare. It is because the state - at least in some places - was *moralized* that we live longer,healthier lives. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#645 | |
The Dank Side of the Moon
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 35,904
Karma: 119230421
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Denver, CO
Device: Kindle2; Kindle Fire
|
Quote:
Sorry Tim, but you haven't argued anything. You state and seem to believe that morals only come from religion and unsupportable/unprovable supernatural being. I disagree wholeheartedly. Tom had pointed out Sam Harris' take on morals based on science and others have pointed out the biological/evolutionary basis. It's this latter that seems most likely as a basis for what we call morals. What are morals but beliefs about how to interact with the world? Not that different than any other beliefs as far as I'm concerned it's all about survival and as Sparrow says - self-interest in surviving and ensuring the survival of progeny. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
Tags |
philosophy, plato |
|
![]() |
||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Philosophy eBooks | dhume01 | Deals and Resources (No Self-Promotion or Affiliate Links) | 8 | 07-28-2010 12:18 PM |
Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy | FlorenceArt | Deals and Resources (No Self-Promotion or Affiliate Links) | 6 | 08-29-2009 07:43 PM |
Christian and Philosophy books on Kindle? | nathanb | Amazon Kindle | 11 | 07-07-2009 09:57 PM |
interesting discussion on pricing of fiction books | Liviu_5 | News | 4 | 10-10-2007 09:27 AM |
Book2Book mobile e-books discussion | shalmaneser | Deals and Resources (No Self-Promotion or Affiliate Links) | 0 | 08-05-2005 05:49 AM |