Arizonan restrictive law backfires

[recluse]

Everyone is afraid of what the police will do.
Two of the individuals that this law is meant to stop recently gunned down a 50 year old man in his driveway. In front of his wife. In broad daylight. Two streets from my home. Gang members. No IDs. No addresses. They didn't fill out the Census. They were headed for the border when they were picked up. Tell me, how do we find the rest without violating their rights? Wait for them to kill first?

[dorino]

Originally Posted by recluse

Everyone is afraid of what the police will do.
Two of the individuals that this law is meant to stop recently gunned down a 50 year old man in his driveway. In front of his wife. In broad daylight. Two streets from my home. Gang members. No IDs. No addresses. They didn't fill out the Census. They were headed for the border when they were picked up. Tell me, how do we find the rest without violating their rights? Wait for them to kill first?

Well, no, but you don't try and pretend that illegals are the only ones guilty of those heinous crimes, either.

EDIT:
You can say that we need restrictive laws to prevent crime, but unfortunately, that goes against everything this country is supposed to stand for. Little bit of a dick move, imo

[Iphinome]

Originally Posted by recluse

Everyone is afraid of what the police will do.
Two of the individuals that this law is meant to stop recently gunned down a 50 year old man in his driveway. In front of his wife. In broad daylight. Two streets from my home. Gang members. No IDs. No addresses. They didn't fill out the Census. They were headed for the border when they were picked up. Tell me, how do we find the rest without violating their rights? Wait for them to kill first?

ad misericordiam. Appeal to pity. Something bad happened therefore you should let the state do anything then bad things won't happen, really.

Well sure if no one had rights crime would be pretty easy to deal with. But then no rights.

I don't like people being shot, I don't like the people who did the shooting. I do like that any suspects have rights. Due process is a good thing. Civil liberties are a good thing. Unchecked police powers are a bad thing.

What would you be willing to do to people innocent of that crime in order to catch the ones who are guilty of it? How far is it worth going? Remember you'll be setting a precedent so whatever you suggest could be done at anyone at any time.

[recluse]

I never said they were.
Just an example.

MS 13 gang members.
Covered in gang tattoos.
Wanted in their home country.
Iphinome, they are easy to pick out of a crowd.
Pick them up. Send them home.
Permanently.
Up to their home country to figure out how to keep them.

[Iphinome]

Originally Posted by recluse

I never said they were.
Just an example.

MS 13 gang members.
Covered in gang tattoos.
Wanted in their home country.
Iphinome, they are easy to pick out of a crowd.
Pick them up. Send them home.
Permanently.
Up to their home country to figure out how to keep them.

We weren't talking about about picking up an easily identifiable murder suspect though. This isn't a matter of stopping a person in a ski mask holding a gun and walking up the a liquor store. We're talking about stopping people who aren't known to have done anything and making them prove they have the legal right to be going about their buisness.

[Joebill]

I don't see how the Arizona law stops legal immigration. In fact, my one of brothers in-law is Canadian. Instead of a year to, it took over 3 years. All due to illegals.

How is that ?

The Immigration and Naturilization Serivce estimates the number of illegals, and then reduces the numbers of legal immigrants.

And for those who don't know, there are European illegal immigrants into the U.S.

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by Iphinome

Now who's adding words to quote boxes?

A proper longer reply will take a few minuites.

that's why it was done in


PURPLE



to give you a visual aid

Originally Posted by Iphinome

Nice personal attacks there. I'm not arguing only for myself Idon't approve of doing it to anyone else either.


we'll try pink, bold even in case the visuals aren't getting through to you. that wasn't a personal attack. that was a statement. too many people run about with this sense of entitlement infringing on everyone elses rights. your attitude embodies that manifestation by everything you post here.
I don't approve of treating the homeless and the ill badly. I don't approve of treating prisoners badly. Don't treat people badly, it isn't nice.

I agree. except regarding prisoners. if you have been convicted of a crime I do not believe that your jail time should be cushy. and yeah, I've seen how Maricopa county deals. looks a lot like basic training. and I went there voluntarily

Perhaps it should have. No forget perhaps. It should have. Where's the probable cause? Is liberty limited by except when someone in authority decides to single you out? Except when some policeman is having a bad day? If in other places they find that sort of thing acceptable well, that's tragic but that doesn't make it acceptable here.

negative laws come about because too many people abuse the system. if you want to buy alcohol, you have to show ID. if you want to buy cold meds that contain whatever goes into meth you have to show id, AND they are locked up behind the counter. as a farm owner when I buy a gallon of iodine (that is farm size) I have to show ID AND sign a form. why is this? because CRIMINALS abused the system. there have been too many criminal illegal aliens that abused the system. so yeah, one bad apple DOES spoil the whole barrel.


Why? Why is this ore important than the basic right to go about your lawful buisness without state interference?

because I want to live

1'st 4'th and 14'th amendments. Freedom of assembly is infringed,
this does NOT infringe assembly. this isn't even requiring registration or identification TO assemble. it makes it easy for law enforcement to ensure MY safety
when people aren't able to go about their businesses without state intimidation. the posession of legal ID is NOT intimidation. intimidation is being stopped at road blocks with klieg lights shining on your car and sub-machine guns pointed in your window. welcome to Germany and Mexico. never had that happen here, but been through it in both places numerous times
When the police stop you without cause and make demands that is intimidation. The demand to produce information could be considered a search and while a pat down without a warrant might be acceptable, a person's papers are specially listed in the 4'th amendment.
you should know and understand the topic before parroting it. The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. this refers more to intellectual property ie; writings, than anything else. this was due to vast criticism of the king, and these writings could be actionable upon the author. this had nothing to do with producing an identification paper. that leads to PROBABLE CAUSE. in this case if a person of authority asks for identification to be produced because there is a suspicion of illegal access, whether that be to a government building, a strip club, a university, or the United States, the refusal to produce such paperwork engenders probable cause for the person in the position of authority to restrain the freedoms of the person making the refusal
When walking while brown is enough to generate police attention then you're violating the equal protection clause of the 14'th amendment.

see above

don't ask don't tell which is the law I was replying about in that quote violates equal protection. I'd wager it probably goes against more thana few anti discrimination laws as well but a civil rights lawyer would be the one to consult about that.
that's not germane to this conversation
And as a matter of my personal morality discriminating against homosexuals is wrong. If you think otherwise I doubt anything anyone here can say will convince you otherwise.
I have not brought that up anywhere and it has nothing to do with this issue

of course if you have nothing to hide why do you object to a search... Will you be posting a scan of your birth certificate and tell me when you use the bathroom do you do so with the door open or closed? If you have nothing to hide I assume you never close the door. If you don't value privacy that's your buisness, give yours away. For myself I'd like to decide for myself what I want to make public and what I want to keep to myself.

I supplied my birth certificate to get my passport. I carry my passport at all times. bringing privacy issues such as the bathroom into the conversation is absolutely ridiculous
Everyone can carry ID, not everyone does. People shouldn't have to. One should not risk police detention if they walk out the door without carrying their papers. Anonymity isn't a crime.

once again, carrying ID is not that onerous. but, at the end of the day, it is YOUR right whether or not to carry it. if your lack of carry ends you up incarcerated, that is your right as well. it is NOT your right to threaten my personal safety by refusing to identify yourself


*shrug* probably a good idea. If there's work issue work visas. A bit too common sense for government though.

Originally Posted by recluse

Everyone is afraid of what the police will do.
Two of the individuals that this law is meant to stop recently gunned down a 50 year old man in his driveway. In front of his wife. In broad daylight. Two streets from my home. Gang members. No IDs. No addresses. They didn't fill out the Census. They were headed for the border when they were picked up. Tell me, how do we find the rest without violating their rights? Wait for them to kill first?

not long ago here in WA state a young woman was raped and murdered by a man who had been deported FIVE TIMES!

Originally Posted by Joebill

I don't see how the Arizona law stops legal immigration. In fact, my one of brothers in-law is Canadian. Instead of a year to, it took over 3 years. All due to illegals.

How is that ?

The Immigration and Naturilization Serivce estimates the number of illegals, and then reduces the numbers of legal immigrants.

And for those who don't know, there are European illegal immigrants into the U.S.

I know how that one goes. a couple of years ago I was offered a pretty high paying job in Canada. the hoops and fees I had to go through to get it just weren't worth it

[DawnFalcon]

dorino - Yes, your way seems to involve a lot of shooting dogs and drugs busts with SWAT teams in the middle of the night. No offence.

But the right sort of end result involves not setting restrictive caps on *temporary* VISA's, because a certain amount of people will come anyway. The only question is if you're going to see proper tax from them, and if they go back home at the end.

[LCF]

Originally Posted by SameOldStory

It is self evident that you don't have to "read through 6 pages". You know what you know. They're racists, end of story. No need to listen to other view points.

But if you think that the Arizona law is draconian, please read a "little" of the Mexican laws.
....

Originally Posted by SameOldStory

The Mexico law IS the Mexican Government! The laws in Mexico ARE HARSHER THAN THE ARAZONA LAWS.

Illegals in Mexico are being kidnapped, beaten, and killed in Mexico, and you don't care? If I say what I think of that I will be kicked of MR.

Illegal Aliens In Mexico Face Kidnap, Rape and Murder: Yet, President Calderon Is Bothered by SB 1070?

“MEXICO CITY – Amnesty International called the abuse of migrants in Mexico a major human rights crisis Wednesday, and accused some officials of turning a blind eye or even participating in the kidnapping, rape and murder of migrants."

There are a lot more countries where shit happens than Mexico. Somewhere it's worse, somewhere it's better. But all those things are not really relevant to the topic of this thread. It's about Arizona's law, and if it is suited for a coutry, which is based on freedom and human rights. If we start disputing (in this topic) every country, where human rights are violated this way or another, the thread will become very hard to read or to follow the certain topic you are interested in.

About the new law - do I get it correct: If you you are an emigrant, you have to wear the "emigration paper" all the time with you, otherwise you are...(what)?

Do you have to wear your ID (nationality doesn't matter) 24/7 with you in Arizona?

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by LCF

There are a lot more countries where shit happens than Mexico. Somewhere it's worse, somewhere it's better. But all those things are not really relevant to the topic of this thread. It's about Arizona's law, and if it is suited for a coutry, which is based on freedom and human rights. If we start disputing (in this topic) every country, where human rights are violated this way or another, the thread will become very hard to read or to follow the certain topic you are interested in.

About the new law - do I get it correct: If you you are an emigrant, you have to wear the "emigration paper" all the time with you, otherwise you are...(what)?

Do you have to wear your ID (nationality doesn't matter) 24/7 with you in Arizona?

WEAR? no, carry. we haven't gotten to yellow stars

[LCF]

I mean carry, of course

So if the Arizonans carry them all the time, I see no problem with the oblication of the imigrants/emigrants (depends on your viewpoint) the have to where their papers too. It would be nice, if they get temporary ID cards instead of bunch of papers; it might help against falsification too.

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by LCF

I mean carry, of course

So if the Arizonans carry them all the time, I see no problem with the oblication of the imigrants/emigrants (depends on your viewpoint) the have to where their papers too. It would be nice, if they get temporary ID cards instead of bunch of papers; it might help against falsification too.

they aare cards. "papers" is just a term used loosely

[LCF]

And you have to carry them all the time with you by law?

[clarknova]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

because I want to live

Ruh-roh, kk, you just said the magic words, and now I must throw quotes upon thee.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Racial profiling, whether it be against Latinos (as suspected illegal immigrants), Persians/Arabs/Isrealites/etc (as suspected terrorists), or whoever, is un-American and allowable only by a culture of fear. Racial profiling is racist, even though that might not be the intent of those who allow it.

What's even worse, is that laws like this or the "patriot act" do nothing to actually protect anyone, but still erode our civil rights. It's security theater written by fear-mongering politicians who wish to get re-elected. And it's not just the GOP that does this, liberals are plenty guilty as well (see the vast number of liberal fear-mongers that try to ban firearms). It also isn't limited to politicians, as there are plenty of ratings whores in the media that sell fear as "victim's rights advocates."

Honestly, it's time for us as a nation to grow a pair, and stop ((over)re)acting in fear.

[obs20]

Originally Posted by LCF

And you have to carry them all the time with you by law?

Some citizens would have to carry more ID than others. If one is from a state other than Arizona, According to the governor of Arizona a driver's license may not be enough to prove legal immigration status.

Naturally the only people who would be asked for this additional ID would be those who appear foreign.

Yes a national ID card would solve the problem but that's not being discussed here.