International Party! (a thread for lovers of languages)

[omk3]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

I'm wondering-- does that come mostly from academic exposure (language lessons) or from "real world" exposure to the language? Because I watch a huge amount of (English subbed) media (TV series/movies/animated/live action) and "anata" is used often. In fact, "watashi"/"atashi" and "anata" are two of the words I first picked out from repetition associated with the subs (which came after figuring out that the word order was different.) My problem with learning the language is that, given the choice between playing one of my language lessons (I have the 90 lesson Pimsleur Japanese plus a few other audio and video series, all downloaded from the internet) and watching an actual episode of Japanese TV (or a movie) I almost always choose the TV/movie and hope to continue to pick up words/form from context.

On a somewhat related note, a funny classic series of essays by a guy teaching English in Japan:

http://classic.dryang.org/japanese/index.htm

It comes from both I too watch anime, but while anime is good for language learning in that it's fun, and you train your ear, the interactions between the characters are not usually the same as you would encounter in your everyday life, especially as a foreigner. I said that anata may be rude in some cases. Between people with great familiarity, or people that are in some ways enemies, it may sound perfectly natural, but you shouldn't necessarily "try this at home". What I learned about japanese, is that you have to be very careful what you copy. If for example you are a man, spending time speaking with japanese women, it's not wise to copy their speech patterns and repeat them in conversation, as they are most probably too "feminine".

[FlorenceArt]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

I'm wondering-- does that come mostly from academic exposure (language lessons) or from "real world" exposure to the language? Because I watch a huge amount of (English subbed) media (TV series/movies/animated/live action) and "anata" is used often. In fact, "watashi"/"atashi" and "anata" are two of the words I first picked out from repetition associated with the subs (which came after figuring out that the word order was different.) My problem with learning the language is that, given the choice between playing one of my language lessons (I have the 90 lesson Pimsleur Japanese plus a few other audio and video series, all downloaded from the internet) and watching an actual episode of Japanese TV (or a movie) I almost always choose the TV/movie and hope to continue to pick up words/form from context.

On a somewhat related note, a funny classic series of essays by a guy teaching English in Japan:

http://classic.dryang.org/japanese/index.htm

I lived in Japan for three years, and I don't think I ever heard anyone in the real world use watashi or anata. Gender and situation specific variants of watashi may be more often heard (boku, ore, atashi) but I don't remember hearing them often except on TV. But my experience was mostly with office life, I never had a Japanese boyfriend, maybe that would have changed my outlook on language

I believe these words are mostly associated with intimate situations among very close friends, lovers or husbands and wives, which may explain why they are more used in the manga world (and on TV also), which is often a dramatized version of an aspect of life that you don't get to see very often in casual/business relationships, as real-life Japanese keep it very private.

[omk3]

Originally Posted by FlorenceArt

I lived in Japan for three years, and I don't think I ever heard anyone in the real world use watashi or anata. Gender and situation specific variants of watashi may be more often heard (boku, ore, atashi) but I don't remember hearing them often except on TV. But my experience was mostly with office life, I never had a Japanese boyfriend, maybe that would have changed my outlook on language

I believe these words are mostly associated with intimate situations among very close friends, lovers or husbands and wives, which may explain why they are more used in the manga world (and on TV also), which is often a dramatized version of an aspect of life that you don't get to see very often in casual/business relationships, as real-life Japanese keep it very private.

Florence, have you perhaps seen the film Stupeur et tremblements? (Or maybe read the book it was based on?) It's about a belgian woman going to work in a japanese company. The film ranges from gentle comedy to quite shocking, and I was wondering how realistic it is, and how common such experiences may be for foreigners going to work there.

[FlorenceArt]

Originally Posted by omk3

Florence, have you perhaps seen the film Stupeur et tremblements? (Or maybe read the book it was based on?) It's about a belgian woman going to work in a japanese company. The film ranges from gentle comedy to quite shocking, and I was wondering how realistic it is, and how common such experiences may be for foreigners going to work there.

I read the book. It's wildly exagerated, but based on reality.

[omk3]

Originally Posted by FlorenceArt

I read the book. It's wildly exagerated, but based on reality.

That's what I thought. Thanks.

[kacir]

Originally Posted by omk3

... I was wondering how realistic it is, and how common such experiences may be for foreigners going to work there.

Read Tokyo vice by Jake Adelstein

[omk3]

Originally Posted by kacir

Read Tokyo vice by Jake Adelstein

It's already on my to-be-read list. I'll move it up a few places

[kacir]

Originally Posted by omk3

It's already on my to-be-read list. I'll move it up a few places

I am sure that this will nudge it a few notches up again:
http://boingboing.net/2008/05/13/usb...nalist-th.html

http://boingboing.net/2010/03/09/mee...adelstein.html

http://www.boingboing.net/2010/03/18...ein-expla.html

[Freeshadow]

that when I read, I have stopped translating in my head as I go.

this is the way IMHO the mastery level of a language begins there, where somebody switches to think in a particular language when using it. everything before that is learning process

[omk3]

Okay, alphabet show-off time!

How to read (modern) greek:

Αα Ββ Γγ Δδ Εε Ζζ Ηη Θθ Ιι Κκ Λλ Μμ Νν Ξξ Οο Ππ Ρρ Σσς Ττ Υυ Φφ Χχ Ψψ Ωω

24 of them. Not that many, right? Know them, learn to recognise a few diphthongs, and you're set! You know how to read greek

Vowels:
Αα - You recognise this one, don't you? The small letter looks a little different, but it's good old a. Pronounced "ah".

Εε - Again, you recognise the capital letter. Good old e, pronounced like the e in bed.

Ηη, Ιι, Υυ - All those are pronounced eee in modern greek. It depends on grammar which one to use in each case, but we won't go into that

Οο, Ωω - You do recognise the first one of course. They are both pronounced o, or rather aw, no little u sound at the end.

Consonants:
Ββ - You recognise the shape, but it is not pronounced like b, but rather like v.

Γγ - Urm... like the very first sound in "what", maybe? A very soft hard g, if I'm making any sense

Δδ - pronounce like the th in the.

Ζζ - yes, a normal z (small letter different from latin)

Θθ - pronounce like the th in theatre

Κκ - a normal k (small letter different from latin)

Λλ - that's just the greek L.

Μμ - a normal m (small letter different from latin)

Νν - a normal n (small letter looks like latin v, but isn't )

Ξξ - that's the x sound in say, axis

Ππ - that's, confusingly, the letter for the sound p

Ρρ - and this, more confusingly, is the letter for the sound r (rather like the spanish one, not really like an english or a french r)

Σσς - this is the s. There's two small letters, because the last one is always used to end a word, never in the middle or start. And σ is never used to end a word.

Ττ - a normal t (more or less), small letter different from latin as usual

Φφ - that's f.

Χχ - not x, but h. A harder h than in english, more like the ch sound in german.

Ψψ - a p+s sound, not like in psychologist, but rather like in epsilon, both letters pronounced.

Phew. Easy wasn't it?

That was a long post, if there is any interest I'll teach you about the few diphthongs and the one accent later.

[HarryT]

I just can't "do" modern Greek, because the pronunciation of Attic Greek is so deeply embedded in my head. It's curious that the written form of the language has survived with relatively few changes for 2,500 years, but the pronunciation has changed utterly.

[omk3]

At school we always pronounced ancient greek exactly like modern greek. Visiting a german school I was surprised at the pronunciation they used when reading Homer.

I suppose it is the same in many languages though. Scripta manent (written words stay), as they say, but speech tends to change over time much more easily. I'd think it's such changes that can explain the weird spelling of many english words in relation to how they are currently pronounced, for example. Or even all the seemingly extra letters in french spelling.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by omk3

At school we always pronounced ancient greek exactly like modern greek. Visiting a german school I was surprised at the pronunciation they used when reading Homer.

We know how Attic Greek was pronounced pretty well, largely through the transliteration of names of places and people from Greek into Latin. So, for example, in Attic Greek, beta was "b" and delta was "d", rather than the "v" and "th" they've become in modern Greek.

[omk3]

I know about that but transliteration can never be entirely accurate, especially if there is no equivalent in the second alphabet. Is there a letter for the "th" sound in the latin alphabet?
Things like pitch or vowel length probably couldn't be successfully transcribed either. Omikron (ο) and omega (ω) actually mean little o and big o, so there must have been a big difference in how they sounded. Do you know what that difference is supposed to be? Is omega louder? Longer? In modern greek they sound exactly the same and their use depends entirely on grammar.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by omk3

I know about that but transliteration can never be entirely accurate, especially if there is no equivalent in the second alphabet. Is there a letter for the "th" sound in the latin alphabet?

You are absolutely right, of course, but it does have its uses. Eg, it's through transliteration that we know that a "C" is Latin was always "hard", because wherever "C" occurs in a name in Latin we always have a "kappa" in Greek, never a "sigma".

No, there is no "th" sound in Latin.

Things like pitch or vowel length probably couldn't be successfully transcribed either. Omikron (ο) and omega (ω) actually mean little o and big o, so there must have been a big difference in how they sounded. Do you know what that difference is supposed to be?

I believe it's not the case in modern Greek, but for Attic Greek I was taught that omicron is a short "o", as in "pot", whereas omega is the long vowel sound in "saw".