Arizonan restrictive law backfires

[nguirado]

I'm also going to agree with the idea that no person can be illegal. The whole idea makes me really uncomfortable and the term suggests that such people are somehow less than the rest of us. They may very well have done something illegal but calling the person illegal has very uncomfortable civil rights implications in my mind. Law breakers still retain the basic rights of personhood.

I see your confusion. You think that when people say that somebody's "illegal" that they're saying that a person's existence is against the law, like somebody over 30 in Logan's Run.

That's not the case. It's part of "illegal immigrant" and just means that they don't have permission to be in the US.

It's like if somebody is in my house without my permission. That's illegal. Or, if you don't pay for a ticket before going to a movie. The person himself isn't illegal. He's just somewhere without permission.

Anyways, back to the video:

Since Arizona's unemployment is over 9%, it seems hard to believe that employers are having such a hard time finding people. Maybe the unemployed in AZ aren't sufficiently motivated.

And, if AZ needs people, they should lobby for more immigration. Then, they'd be legal. Win-win.

[SameOldStory]

Originally Posted by Iphinome

I don't concede the point but even if you were correct then I'd rather leave the problem unfixed then spend my time presumed guilty of illegal immigration until proven innocent.

Iphinome, please read Article 85 & 86. This is from Mexico. NOT Arizona!

[happy_terd]

Originally Posted by Iphinome

I don't concede the point but even if you were correct then I'd rather leave the problem unfixed then spend my time presumed guilty of illegal immigration until proven innocent.

That isnt the real world though.

We cannot afford to let it go unfixed and no matter what we do someone will be inconvenienced.

[happy_terd]

Originally Posted by nguirado

Since Arizona's unemployment is over 9%, it seems hard to believe that employers are having such a hard time finding people. Maybe the unemployed in AZ aren't sufficiently motivated.

They are having a hard time finding Arizonians to work for the slave labor wages that they pay the illegals...sure.

[Iphinome]

Originally Posted by SameOldStory

Iphinome, please read Article 85 & 86. This is from Mexico. NOT Arizona!

I wasn't replying to your post. I was replying to happy_terd hence the quote.

[Iphinome]

Originally Posted by happy_terd

That isnt the real world though.

We cannot afford to let it go unfixed and no matter what we do someone will be inconvenienced.

I'm gong to oppose any measure that leaves US citizens and legal residents as presumed guilty until proven innocent. That matters more to me.

[happy_terd]

I oppose keeping the problem going forever and costing the US tax payer billions of dollars because we are too politically correct to ask everyone to lift up their damn birth certificate.

[SameOldStory]

Originally Posted by Iphinome

I wasn't replying to your post. I was replying to happy_terd hence the quote.

So read mine. Do you think that Mexico's laws are better or worse than Arizona?

If you follow the links you can read the Mexican laws. And if you can read in Spanish you can follow the link to the Spanish version.

There is so much wrong in this world and many ignore the worst.

[Iphinome]

Originally Posted by nguirado

I see your confusion. You think that when people say that somebody's "illegal" that they're saying that a person's existence is against the law, like somebody over 30 in Logan's Run.

That's not the case. It's part of "illegal immigrant" and just means that they don't have permission to be in the US.

It's like if somebody is in my house without my permission. That's illegal. Or, if you don't pay for a ticket before going to a movie. The person himself isn't illegal. He's just somewhere without permission.

Anyways, back to the video:

Since Arizona's unemployment is over 9%, it seems hard to believe that employers are having such a hard time finding people. Maybe the unemployed in AZ aren't sufficiently motivated.

And, if AZ needs people, they should lobby for more immigration. Then, they'd be legal. Win-win.

Yes that's the basic idea, I object to terms that suggest a person's existence is proscribed by law. A person can not be illegal only their acts.

What can I say? Words matter. Saying someone is illegal is a step in dehumanizing therm. This has a long history and there's quite a bit of it here on mobileread. Control the terms, control the debate, paint the other side as evil without ever having to make a valid point.

If someone's "illegal" they've already lost. They suddenly don't deserve basic rights like humane treatment. If however just their acts or the acts of their parents in the case of children are illegal... Well they become people, get trails, presumption of innocence. The good stuff that means the difference between a free society and a police state or even a caste system.

I'm a bit idealistic I admit but all I'm basically trying to say is people, any people don't need to be harassed or constantly having to prove themselves on demand. If you have evidence of something there's a justice system, if you don't have evidence leave them, and me alone.

[Iphinome]

Originally Posted by SameOldStory

So read mine. Do you think that Mexico's laws are better or worse than Arizona?

If you follow the links you can read the Mexican laws. And if you can read in Spanish you can follow the link to the Spanish version.

There is so much wrong in this world and many ignore the worst.

I don't approve of the Mexican law however I am not a citizen or resident of Mexico and Mexico doesn't seem to taking on the role of the US federal government. The Arizona law is closer to home so to speak.

[Iphinome]

Originally Posted by happy_terd

I oppose keeping the problem going forever and costing the US tax payer billions of dollars because we are too politically correct to ask everyone to lift up their damn birth certificate.

I see but you might not legally be here, please scan and post your brith certificate so we can be sure.

[happy_terd]

That still doesnt change the fact that a HUGE percentage of us want them out.

I say we take a vote and simply do the will of the people. In the end that is the only thing that matters.

[nguirado]

Originally Posted by Iphinome

If someone's "illegal" they've already lost. They suddenly don't deserve basic rights like humane treatment. If however just their acts or the acts of their parents in the case of children are illegal... Well they become people, get trails, presumption of innocence. The good stuff that means the difference between a free society and a police state or even a caste system.

If somebody is here illegally, then, yes, they've lost the right to be in the US.

By your logic, somebody shouldn't have to prove they have a driver's license when they're pulled over. If we want to have an orderly process of immigration, we have to have some enforcement.

My relatives are Cuban and have lived in a police state. Arizona is way better. I'm sure it's way better than 17th-century India, rights-wise.

What, specifically, is the inhumane treatment?

[Iphinome]

Originally Posted by nguirado

If somebody is here illegally, then, yes, they've lost the right to be in the US.

By your logic, somebody shouldn't have to prove they have a driver's license when they're pulled over. If we want to have an orderly process of immigration, we have to have some enforcement.

My relatives are Cuban and have lived in a police state. Arizona is way better. I'm sure it's way better than 17th-century India, rights-wise.

What, specifically, is the inhumane treatment?

I wasn't suggesting anything that happened but you can google Maricopa County's sheriff. I'm talking about what could and I predict will happen. This is a law that I promise you will be abused. read my earlier posts for some things I think will happen.

How much better is Arizona? If the police can stop anyone and demand proof of innocence? People will support this because if they don't have brown skin they think this law will have no effect on them. Others will do it because they're afraid and don't care if they have civil liberties or not. I care. I'm speaking out against giving the local police this power. I'm also speaking out against labeling a person illegal rather than just their actions.

I don't care if the majority want it. History is full of examples of the tyranny of the majority, I don't even need to godwin this discussion, look back to segregation. The majority are wrong. If they want to control immigration they need to do it another way.

[SameOldStory]

Originally Posted by Iphinome

I don't approve of the Mexican law however I am not a citizen or resident of Mexico and Mexico doesn't seem to taking on the role of the US federal government. The Arizona law is closer to home so to speak.

The Mexico law IS the Mexican Government! The laws in Mexico ARE HARSHER THAN THE ARAZONA LAWS.

Illegals in Mexico are being kidnapped, beaten, and killed in Mexico, and you don't care? If I say what I think of that I will be kicked of MR.

Illegal Aliens In Mexico Face Kidnap, Rape and Murder: Yet, President Calderon Is Bothered by SB 1070?

“MEXICO CITY – Amnesty International called the abuse of migrants in Mexico a major human rights crisis Wednesday, and accused some officials of turning a blind eye or even participating in the kidnapping, rape and murder of migrants."