Would you buy an e-book with DRM?

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

Instead of supporting the DRM-restrictive bookstores and authors, why not support the ones who treat you like an honest person and a valued customer, instead of a thief and a cheat?

I'm sure lots of us do. But there are also times when a book one wants to read isn't available without DRM.

Even here on DRM-savvy mobileread, (on current poll numbers) DRM publishers are only losing 20% of their potential customers by having DRM. Of course, if their DRM couldn't be removed, they'd lose over 70%.

But if we could expanded the poll and get responses from the many, many people who've never heard of Mobileread, but have bought a Kindle or a Nook, I think you'd find that the number who know or worry about DRM is under 1%.

This is, of course, an invented statistic. But I think it's most likely an overestimate.

[Worldwalker]

Surrendering to evil, or at least to DRM, isn't the solution, though. Educating the people who don't know what it's all about is important. And as for the books one wants to read ... yes, there are books I want to read which are not available free of DRM. But there are so many books I want to read that I don't have to read those exact books; there are plenty of other books I want to read that are not DRM-restricted.

Have you ever seen the book "Eat This, Not That"? It's sort of an un-diet book: it offers alternatives, as similar as possible, that you can substitute for a lot of unhealthy foods. Maybe we should assemble a "Read This, Not That" list for people who want good books that are not DRM-restricted?

It's not just about my personal convenience with DRM or lack thereof. It's about looking at two people who want to sell me something, and deciding which I will do business with. Is it going to be the one who says "You're a thief and a cheat, so we're going to inconvenience you as much as possible" or is it going to be the one who says "You're an honest person, and we're going to deal fairly with you"? I prefer the latter, so that's who I do business with.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

DRM reminds me of a college professor I had. We had to fill out a workbook in one of his classes. The workbook was the Book of Acts and had missing words we had to fill in (yes, this was a COLLEGE class; childish, wasn't it?). All one had to do was crack open a Bible and fill in the missing words, which is what the professor expected. The best grade one could get for completing the workbook was a B. This, according to the professor, was because it was so easy to get a completed workbook from someone who had already taken the class and copy from there. Do I have to explain why this was so ludicrous?

[dmaul1114]

Yes, I have a Kindle and have bought books with DRM.

I seldom re-read, so I don't really care. I'm just happy to not have a physical book to dispose of after reading.

[wodin]

Since I have muliple incompatible devices, I do it all the time, next step ... the DarkReverser.

[Fbone]

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

It's about looking at two people who want to sell me something, and deciding which I will do business with. Is it going to be the one who says "You're a thief and a cheat, so we're going to inconvenience you as much as possible" or is it going to be the one who says "You're an honest person, and we're going to deal fairly with you"? I prefer the latter, so that's who I do business with.

I guess it doesnt bother me. So many things I do or places I go have security features that intrude on our lives. My local library has security monitors that buzz when you pass through. BJ's has an employee that goes through your packages to make sure you purchased everything in your cart. I have to prove I'm a US citizen every time I renew my driver's license. Security cameras everywhere. All these situations assume we're thieves so I dont see the difference with DRM ebooks. I know what my options are when I buy an e-reader. I know too my options when I buy an ebook.

Denying myself now the pleasure of reading my favorite authors is not worth the nonexistent gain if/when ebooks become DRM-free. I read books once and throw away.

[Worldwalker]

I'm a re-reader, which I suppose makes a great deal of difference. And I'm willing to deny myself pleasure when I believe that the social cost of that pleasure -- in this case, encouraging the use of DRM -- is too great.

Another difference is in the effects of the things you listed. It's not unreasonable to have to show you are eligible for a government-issued ID before it can be issued to you. Security cameras don't stop you from doing anything, and while they might not stop someone from holding up a convenience store (or you, for that matter) they make it a lot easier to nail the guy who did it, which, as little as I like public surveillance, I have to admit is a significant benefit. Likewise the anti-theft strips in items and their corresponding sensors at the doors. None of those are directed at me personally, and none of them hamper my use of any associated product or service. In some cases, they're potentially quite beneficial to me individually, such as having a way to catch someone if I get mugged in the Wal-Mart parking lot or something.

Digital Restrictions Management, on the other hand, is directed at me personally. It says "You, Worldwalker, are not someone we can trust with this ebook." It puts significant restrictions on my normal, ordinary use of the item I just bought, and that's not even getting into things like first-sale doctrine. It's much more intrusive, and much more personally directed, than a security camera in a store or a buzzer in a library.

There's also the purpose of it. It doesn't stop illicit copying, and every publisher knows that. People have been copying books without permission since they had to use a quill pen to do it. Its purpose, and its function, is to support device lock-in. If you have a library of books for your Kindle, for instance, and the Kindle stops working, you can't go buy a Nook instead; you have to buy another Kindle. That's the real purpose of DRM, the one the publishers and booksellers don't talk about. They're not losing money to "piracy", and they know they're not (if that were the case, Baen Books would have gone bankrupt years ago). Publishers want to sell you multiple copies of the same book, and much more important, bookstores that are tied to hardware (Sony, Amazon, B&N, etc.) want to make sure you can't buy their competitors' hardware, at least not without the prohibitive cost of replacing all your books (which would of course delight the publishers).

By the way, it's not you BJ's is checking on, or at least not entirely you; it's their own employees. Think about it: what, really, could you add to your cart between the register and the door? One of the major sources of loss for retailers is cashiers who "miss" an item or two in a friend's cart, and that's who they're really trying to nail.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

The cameras at the convenience store I use to work in were more to deal with employee theft than customer theft.

Fry's Electronics, Costco, etc. all check carts and bags against the receipt when leaving. Considering the short or controlled path from checkout to the door, it would be difficult to impossible to add anything to your cart or bags without being observed (believe me, there are more cameras than you see). If you were able to get something that far, then you may as well keep it concealed until you get it outside. As Worldwalker pointed out, they are checking the checkers more than they are the customers.

It's sad that stores have to implement such draconian security measures all because of a few thieves but it's about the only way they can deal with it. If I feel any resentment, it's for the thieves that force stores to have to have security measures rather than the stores. After the thefts, customer and employee, I saw going on the convenience store I worked at, I have even more resentment for thieves. They drive up prices to cover for the thefts. It's also not fair that I worked my backside off earning the money for things I bought, then have to also subsidize the lazy, self centered, inconsiderate bastards who just help themselves unwilling to work for what they get.

Same as Worldwalker, I don't mind having my bags checked, being on camera, etc. It's not inconveniencing me. It's not preventing me from using the products I'm purchasing. DRM, on the other hand, either does or restricts my use. Like Worldwalker, I prefer to speak with my wallet and not buy DRM encumbered products, such as books, software, etc. I don't have a problem doing whatever it takes to use a product I have paid for, such as stripping DRM, but if I buy DRM encumbered products and strip the DRM, the vendors selling those products will be rewarded for applying the DRM. I also resent anyone forcing me to break the law (defeating DRM) so if I don't have to, I prefer not to. As Worldwalker pointed out, I can buy alternate products; in my case, paperbooks, usually used, I can legally scan, either before or after reading.

[Fbone]

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

I'm a re-reader, which I suppose makes a great deal of difference.

Yes, that does make a difference in how we view things.

Digital Restrictions Management, on the other hand, is directed at me personally. It says "You, Worldwalker, are not someone we can trust with this ebook." It puts significant restrictions on my normal, ordinary use of the item I just bought,

I must not take it so personally. The DRM is on every particular ebook sold not just to you. You arent singled out. And the DRM doesnt restrict me at all due to my reading habits.

By the way, it's not you BJ's is checking on, or at least not entirely you; it's their own employees. Think about it: what, really, could you add to your cart between the register and the door? One of the major sources of loss for retailers is cashiers who "miss" an item or two in a friend's cart, and that's who they're really trying to nail.

I didnt realize employee theft was so rampant.

Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald

Same as Worldwalker, I don't mind having my bags checked, being on camera, etc. It's not inconveniencing me. It's not preventing me from using the products I'm purchasing. DRM, on the other hand, either does or restricts my use. Like Worldwalker, I prefer to speak with my wallet and not buy DRM encumbered products, such as books, software, etc. As Worldwalker pointed out, I can buy alternate products; in my case, paperbooks, usually used, I can legally scan, either before or after reading.

For me the price of the device and ebooks is more of an issue. And as I only read it once and toss away (or delete) books have less value to me. Whether it is printed or electronic I wouldnt pay very much for them. So while DRM doesnt concern me, pricing does ... extremely. I have already seen where the ebook cost more than the hardcover and paperback editions.

In the end, we may not be purchasing DRM ebooks although for two different reasons.

[Worldwalker]

Yes, employee theft is a major source of loss for retailers. I don't have figures on how it compares to shoplifting, but it's big.

Another bit of trivia: the overwhelming majority of credit card fraud (according to my credit card rep back when I was a software company, over two-thirds) is committed by merchants (including their employees).

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald

Fry's Electronics, Costco, etc. all check carts and bags against the receipt when leaving.

Any shop that tried to search me when I left would have a customer insisting on an instant refund on all the goods I'd just bought, and would never see me again. The cheek!

Well, unless they seriously considered that I had been shoplifting, anyway — I'm prepared to accept it as an innocent mistake, but not a routine requirement.

I don't see DRM in quite the same light.

[Gremlin]

I probably will, but only if I think that I can remove the DRM later.

I already do so for professional purposes (there is no point in waiting for the book to arrive and then filling up the already full bookcase) but I never share my e-books!

The DRM simply restricts you from using the book you bought. You can’t transfer it to yours reader (Hanlin v3 at this point), you can’t annotate it (using PDF-Annotator for example), you may not be able to move the book between devices belongs to you (no sharing, as I already mentioned), and the worst: no easy method available for backup (and those hard-disks, CDs, DVDs etc. all these have limited lifespan as we all already now, they all fail at the end). You can’t simply copy the file somewhere, you will probably need to re-authorize your computer/device, re-download the file (if still available …) and move on to the next book you bought (my time isn’t nuisance).

So, on the bottom line I already do buy protected books (I fully understand the need for paying for somebody work) but just in case I’ll not spend my entire life trying reading it the way most people do.

[Worldwalker]

The correct word is not "protected"; it is "restricted".

Do not let the publishers choose our vocabulary for us.

[BlackVoid]

Anything that has DRM is a sub-standard, temporary product. I would not buy it even if I could remove it. If I paid for it, I do not want to spend time cracking it.
I would be happy to borrow DRM protected books for a good price.

[neilmarr]

REVOLT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!