Philosophy: books and discussion

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by beppe

... Formal religions, with priests, temples, liturgies and the like often resulted in structures of power. The God of the Bible warns about this: "the altar will not be morally ruined by tools". Meaning, keep it as simple as possible. The citation is sloppy on purpose. Christ says to Peter You are stone and on this stone you will build my Church, both a quote of the ancient word of God and and exortation to keep it simple. The results were and are under the eyes of everyone....

You threw me for a minute, as I could not immediately recall the words "the altar will not be morally ruined by tools" as being in the Bible; then I realized you were speaking of the un-hewn stones of Exodus chapter 20.

Exodus 20:22 (Tanakh [1985], Jewish Publication Society): And if you make for Me an altar of stones, do not build it of hewn stones; for by wielding your tool upon them you have profaned them.

Three comments:

(1) This un-hewn stone altar was used by Moses in the wilderness. The Temple altar, whose method of construction was much more elaborate and also dictated by divine fiat, could hardly be considered un-hewn.

(2) We often speak of THE god of the Bible, but such language is imprecise. Many are the names of God in the Bible, and it isn't at all apparent that originally they were referring to the same deity. El was the principal deity of a Canaanite pantheon of deities. Yahweh seems to have begun as the cultic worship of a minor deity who in time became associated with El in the minds of the early Israelites. Even the attributes and feats of his rival Baal seem to have been transferred over time to Yahweh.

One of the most fascinating of all verses in the Hebrew Bible retains some of the polytheistic relics of these early Israelite beliefs:

Deuteronomy 32:8-9 (New Revised Standard): When the Most High [El] apportioned the nations, when he divided humankind, he fixed the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the gods; the LORD's [Yahweh's] own portion was his people, Jacob his allotted share.

(3) To profane something is not the same as committing an immoral act. To profane a holy object is to commit a transgression against a ritual commandment. That in itself may be considered to be an immoral act, but the distinction is important to note.

[TimMason]

FlorenceArt - have you seen this? It describes the work of Iegor Resnikoff, who has tracked the relationship between sound and wall paintings in the caves of South-east France. Resnikoff and his assistants mapped the acoustics of the caves, singing, whistling and clapping their hands. where resonance was strong, that's where they found the paintings. This is very suggestive.

Similar results have been found in the US, and in southern Africa, where San rock paintings are related to acoustic phenomena. Today, although the San no longer paint on rocks, they still dance to the eland, going into trances as they move to the music.

Some anthropologists - not all - think that the rock paintings, the music, and the dance, are related to hypnotic visions. Look for David Lewis-Williams, who is best known for his work on San magical ritual, but who has recently turned his attention to the French caves.

For some anthropologists, the important functions of religion come from its power to make us act together. It is the way our bodies act in unison, in dance, or in making music. We then tell stories to fix the movements, to encode the collective activities, and these stories (you can find traces of this in folk-tales) gradually take on a life of their own.

[beppe]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

You threw me for a minute, as I could not immediately recall the words "the altar will not be morally ruined by tools" as being in the Bible; then I realized you were speaking of the un-hewn stones of Exodus chapter 20.

Exodus 20:22 (Tanakh [1985], Jewish Publication Society): And if you make for Me an altar of stones, do not build it of hewn stones; for by wielding your tool upon them you have profaned them.

Three comments:

(1) This un-hewn stone altar was used by Moses in the wilderness. The Temple altar, whose method of construction was much more elaborate and also dictated by divine fiat, could hardly be considered un-hewn.

(2) We often speak of THE god of the Bible, but such language is imprecise. Many are the names of God in the Bible, and it isn't at all apparent that originally they were referring to the same deity. El was the principal deity of a Canaanite pantheon of deities. Yahweh seems to have begun as the cultic worship of a minor deity who in time became associated with El in the minds of the early Israelites. Even the attributes and feats of Baal seem to have been transferred over time to Yahweh.

One of the most fascinating of all verses in the Hebrew Bible retains some of the polytheistic relics of early Israelite beliefs:

Deuteronomy 32:8-9 (New Revised Standard): When the Most High [El Most High] apportioned the nations, when he divided humankind, he fixed the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the gods; the LORD's [Yahweh's] own portion was his people, Jacob his allotted share.

(3) To profane something is not the same as committing an immoral act. To profane a holy object is to commit a transgression against a ritual commandment. That in itself may be considered to be an immoral act, but the distinction is important to note.

Thank you Tom, that is exactly why I made a sloppy quotation on purpose. Be sure not out of disrespect.

To me one of the most interesting "things" in the Bible, is the almost complete absence of the Mother, venerated for millenia. While it is still present in India, and under different form, in the Catholic religion, where it is surfacing vehemently. The cult of the Holy Vergin, it is thoughts to attract nowadays about 70% of the faithful devotion. With most of the ancient symbols in full evidence, among which the moon stands up.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by TimMason

FlorenceArt - have you seen this? It describes the work of Iegor Resnikoff, who has tracked the relationship between sound and wall paintings in the caves of South-east France. Resnikoff and his assistants mapped the acoustics of the caves, singing, whistling and clapping their hands. where resonance was strong, that's where they found the paintings. This is very suggestive.

Similar results have been found in the US, and in southern Africa, where San rock paintings are related to acoustic phenomena. Today, although the San no longer paint on rocks, they still dance to the eland, going into trances as they move to the music.

Some anthropologists - not all - think that the rock paintings, the music, and the dance, are related to hypnotic visions. Look for David Lewis-Williams, who is best known for his work on San magical ritual, but who has recently turned his attention to the French caves.

For some anthropologists, the important functions of religion come from its power to make us act together. It is the way our bodies act in unison, in dance, or in making music. We then tell stories to fix the movements, to encode the collective activities, and these stories (you can find traces of this in folk-tales) gradually take on a life of their own.

Here are some interesting excerpts pulled from Quirkology by Richard Wiseman that seem to confirm what you say, albeit in a slightly different context. They could certainly go a long toward explaining the placement of the artwork, especially if it had ritual or magical connotations for those early artists.


.....This laboratory also had a reputation for being haunted, and the cleaning staff sometimes reported feeling odd in the building.

...

.....Vic ["the late Vic Tandy"] figured out that the room contained a low-frequency sound wave that fell below the human hearing threshold. Further investigation confirmed his suspicions. He traced the source of the wave back to a newly fitted fan in the air-conditioning system.

...

.....Aeron Watson and David Keating from Reading University have constructed a computer model of a Scottish Neolithic passage grave. Using this model, the researchers have argued that the site has an infrasonic resonant frequency such that a person beating a 30-centimeter drum could produce powerful low-frequency sounds.

...

.....…[T]he team visited several churches and cathedrals that contained especially large organ pipes and discovered that some were indeed creating significant levels of infrasound. This suggests that people who experience a sense of spirituality in church may be reacting to the extreme bass sound produced by the pipes.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by beppe

Thank you Tom, that is exactly why I made a sloppy quotation on purpose. Be sure not out of disrespect.

You know I love you, beppe!

Originally Posted by beppe

To me one of the most interesting "things" in the Bible, is the almost complete absence of the Mother, venerated for millenia. While it is still present in India, and under different form, in the Catholic religion, where it is surfacing vehemently. The cult of the Holy Vergin, it is thoughts to attract nowadays about 70% of the faithful devotion. With most of the ancient symbols in full evidence, among which the moon stands up.

The Bible is certainly in the main a patriarchal book, but there are notable exceptions. Jesus at times seemed to run against the patriarchal grain, and then there's the possibility (largely because of the sympathetic depiction of women in the writings of the "J" author, according to Harold Bloom and David Rosenberg) that the Yahwist may have been an educated woman in the court of King Solomon; as I mentioned earlier in this post.

[FlorenceArt]

Originally Posted by TimMason

FlorenceArt - have you seen this? It describes the work of Iegor Resnikoff, who has tracked the relationship between sound and wall paintings in the caves of South-east France. Resnikoff and his assistants mapped the acoustics of the caves, singing, whistling and clapping their hands. where resonance was strong, that's where they found the paintings. This is very suggestive.

Similar results have been found in the US, and in southern Africa, where San rock paintings are related to acoustic phenomena. Today, although the San no longer paint on rocks, they still dance to the eland, going into trances as they move to the music.

Some anthropologists - not all - think that the rock paintings, the music, and the dance, are related to hypnotic visions. Look for David Lewis-Williams, who is best known for his work on San magical ritual, but who has recently turned his attention to the French caves.

Yes, I have heard, in part, about these theories, but I didn't know about the association between sound and visuals. It fits with the shamanic theories I think. But it doesn't mean the rituals predated the stories, although maybe it would make better sense that way...

Originally Posted by TimMason

For some anthropologists, the important functions of religion come from its power to make us act together. It is the way our bodies act in unison, in dance, or in making music. We then tell stories to fix the movements, to encode the collective activities, and these stories (you can find traces of this in folk-tales) gradually take on a life of their own.

The more I read this, the more it makes sense. Yes, I guess that could work as a starting point.

The stories themselves, the tales or the myths, often have a lot in common I think. I'm sure there must have been attempts to analyze these common elements. I know that Bruno Bettelheim analyzed fairy tales from a psychoanalytical point of view, and I already mentioned René Girard's works on sacrifice, but I'm sure there must be other studies on this subject.

[FlorenceArt]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

The team visited several churches and cathedrals that contained especially large organ pipes and discovered that some were indeed creating significant levels of infrasound. This suggests that people who experience a sense of spirituality in church may be reacting to the extreme bass sound produced by the pipes.

That seems a bit simplistic. Many churches don't have an organ. Although I'm sure the music adds to the feeling of religious awe, just as the architecture or decoration can, it's just, as we say in French, "the cherry on top of the cake". It would be dishonest (and easily disprovable) to reduce the religious feeling to just one acoustic phenomenon.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by FlorenceArt

That seems a bit simplistic. Many churches don't have an organ. Although I'm sure the music adds to the feeling of religious awe, just as the architecture or decoration can, it's just, as we say in French, "the cherry on top of the cake". It would be dishonest (and easily disprovable) to reduce the religious feeling to just one acoustic phenomenon.

Perhaps he should have made it clearer that it could be a contributing factor. You are right; certainly that's not all there is to the sense of connectedness to other realities that many folks feel; whether they do so in church, or in "haunted" locations.

The researcher himself who investigated the "haunted laboratory" reported seeing ghostly apparitions at the site. He did not believe them to be otherworldly, however; but being the faithful reporter, he recorded his visions nonetheless. He attributed them to hallucinations brought on by the way his own physiology was acted upon by the infrasound vibrations.

[recluse]

There is a greater sense of awe in church if certain factors exist in tandem. Lighting, the music, the age of the church itself, and, personally, if Mass is held in Latin.

[WT Sharpe]

True, the location and related elements can all contribute to the sense of awe.

Few things are more awe-inspiring in my opinion than to look up on a clear, quiet night at the starry sky overhead. Being a New Yorker, you probably don't see the stars too often. The skies here are usually filled with humidity and city lights don't help make the shy any clearer, but at least I'm sure it's better than where you are.

I've thought of taking a vacation in one of those more remote locations in the country where the night sky is still relatively clear just for the experience.

[TimMason]

There is a greater sense of awe in church if certain factors exist in tandem. Lighting, the music, the age of the church itself, and, personally, if Mass is held in Latin.

The ceremonies in the caves would have included sound, light, and visuals, as well as dancing (ask yourself why the brand of Christianity that is really taking off all over the world is Pentecostal).

The stories of Central Australia often seem strange to people brought up on the fairy-tale. Essentially, they consist of accounts of journeys of mythical ancestors from one sacred place, where they emerge from the earth, to another, where they sit down forever, or go back underground. On their journey, they carry out a number of ceremonies or rituals, which their descendants are obliged to repeat regularly, in order that they and the land they live on may prosper.

These ceremonies consist of inscriptions of collective representations on both the bodies of the participants, and on the land itself. They have both symbolic and natural efficacy, and it is difficult for the outside observer to distinguish between the one and the other. For men and women, the ceremonies help them grow right. For animals and plants, the ceremonies encourage fertility and abundance. The stories are, in a way, road maps and instructions for the rituals. (You can find traces of similar stories elsewhere, where the land remains of day to day importance. There is, for example, a Welsh tale which simply tells of how a witch flew from one place to another, where she crashed and was transformed into a hill).

These stories encode knowledge, but not in ways that make immediate sense to us. Take an example given by Lévi-Strauss (iirc); people fill a container with water, and then ritually chew a particular plant, spitting the fluid into the container. Then a young prepubescent male is given the container and a length of cord; he must successfully climb his way to the top of a large tree and suspend the container from one of the higher branches. They then leave the mixture up in the tree until the moon is high. At that point, the boy shins up the tree again and brings it down. They skim the muck floating on top of the liquid, and they use it for medical purposes.

What they have got is penicillin. It looks as if they have somehow or other accidentally hit on a way of producing this precious substance, but, lacking the scientific method, they have stuck to their tradition,keeping in a whole series of superfluous steps that have no bearing on the matter at all.

However, it can be argued that each of the steps, each of the ritual activities, has its own efficacity. The group sitting round the pot, spitting into it, are working together, and that is important. The boy who is given an important role in the process learns to value it, and this ensures transmission of the skills. The moon is a clock that helps them gauge the time necessary for the transformation. And so on.

So what I'm arguing is that, on the one hand, knowledge gained through the scientific process is only one kind of knowledge, and that there are others which have their own validity. On the other, such ways of knowing are very often corporal as much as they are cerebral, and that in many ways physical movement, ritual, song and artistic inscription, are prior to narrative elaboration. In some ways, that remains true in modern science; laboratories are highly ritualistic places - the use and care of instruments is most thoroughly encoded in the body of the practitioner, and deviations from use and care frowned upon. To the outsider, the scientists may very well seem superstitious.

On fairy tales I wouldn't really trust Bettleheim. Marina Warner's 'From the Beast to the Blonde; on Fairy Tales and their Tellers', is very good indeed, and Jack Zipes worth having a look at - although he has a political axe to grind.

[GeoffC]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

True, the location and related elements can all contribute to the sense of awe.

Few things are more awe-inspiring in my opinion than to look up on a clear, quiet night at the starry sky overhead. Being a New Yorker, you probably don't see the stars too often. The skies here are usually filled with humidity and city lights don't help make the shy any clearer, but at least I'm sure it's better than where you are.

I've thought of taking a vacation in one of those more remote locations in the country where the night sky is still relatively clear just for the experience.

If your normal view of the sky is 'clouded', then the reality may prove rather 'shocking'. There is a beauty in the stars, their majesty, shapes/colours, that is breath-taking; add into the mix the moon and her shape-changing, the 'stars' that move across the sky, apparently at random, and the (for us) Northern Lights and you have a show from Mother Nature that inspires.

[TimMason]

Pascal found the stars terrifying in their infinitude. Perhaps that is why some humans turn away from them, in the end, and hold their ceremonies beneath ground, or cover them up with roofs, which they can control and decorate to their own taste.

At Catal Huyek men and women build themselves a village that lasted some 6 thousand years. Each family had its own enclosed living space, and on their walls they placed the heads of bulls, thrusting out into the rooms. They further decorated them with strange paintings, including enormous vultures, headless bodies and what may have been hunting scenes. They huddled together to shelter from the wild, and then brought the wild into their houses with them.

[GeoffC]

Thanks for that link, Tim.

(Not too sure where your "6000 years" comes in .....

"......settlement which existed from approximately 7500 BC to 5700 BC.....")

[TimMason]

Sorry - I was writing from memory, which is never a good idea.