Philosophy: books and discussion

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by GeoffC

according to what I've managed to glean and understand, that may be true, but there must have been science before the philosophers were on the scene, and that's even before the sophists ....

would not science have started once man / woman started to use fire / projectiles ? conception ?

My my theory is even more fundamental than that. It is based in evolution and being able to predict the world around you in order to survive. In other words being able to predict (i.e. hypothesize) and test those predictions and then use them in future situations in order to survive. And adapt them as things change. The core of science/scientific method as evolution.

[mike_bike_kite]

Originally Posted by kennyc

My my theory is even more fundamental than that. It is based in evolution and being able to predict the world around you in order to survive. In other words being able to predict (i.e. hypothesize) and test those predictions and then use them in future situations in order to survive. And adapt them as things change. The core of science/scientific method as evolution.

I wouldn't go so far to say that evolution gives rise to science but it almost certainly gives rise to consciousness because being able to picture what will happen to you if you do something is definitely an asset.

[beppe]

Originally Posted by GeoffC

But Beppe, one cannot ignore chaos, without it the universe would be so boring !

Of course, dearest Geoff. But once you are there, happily paddling in the whirls of chaos, you are in a very thick fog. That is why we always try to stay on the order (deterministic side) as far as we can. After that the big jump in the thick pea soup.

And there is chaos and chaos. If you start making hypothesis about chaos you end up looking for your lost keys just under the lamp post, while they will be found under a car two blocks away.

But who cares, you wrote beautiful and acclaimed papers in prestigious journals (edited by friends of friends), and the guy who comes up with the keys will be received at the back door and given a bowl of soup and the occasion of resting his tired bones for a while near the fire.

PS who is John Galt?

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by beppe

...
PS who is John Galt?

Do you know Billy Bones?

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by GeoffC

Surely anything that investigates by asking questions about life in all its grandeur is "Philosophy?"

Does religion ask, or does religion tell?

[kennyc]

I know this is a serious discussion, but this is funny:

http://xkcd.com/749/

[FlorenceArt]

Originally Posted by kennyc

I know this is a serious discussion, but this is funny:

http://xkcd.com/749/

What's the use of philosophy if we can't have some fun now and then?

I was supposed to post a lot of profound thoughts, but I'm too tired and a bit drunk from being at an opening earlier tonight, so I think I'll just relax with a bit of Seneca.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by beppe

Well I am talking about apples falling. To predict exacty where they will fall you need to know at least:

a) detailed knowledge of mass distribution underground
b) detailed and actual state of air between end points
c) complete and accurate description of shape and surface properties of the said apple
d) detailed and accurate description of the detachment of said apple from branch of tree.

Are you Mandrake, my friend?




or you can do assumptions ...

I act upon assumptions every day of my life, and yes, I am Mandrake! I thought you knew that.

[beppe]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Do you know Billy Bones?

Oh yeah.

The book's opening line "Who is John Galt?" becomes an expression of helplessness and despair ...

Billy Bones and his chest ...

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by kennyc

...Religion is based on belief without proof.

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

That seems to be a rather narrow definition of religion.

Originally Posted by kennyc

Wasn't intended to be all-encompassing. But to compare and contrast with science. Science requires proof and falsifiability, religion does not and is not falsifiable.

Now there's a statement with which I feel more in tune. The first one seemed to lump all religious sensibilities together, as if the religious viewpoints of people like Jerry Falwell and Albert Einstein were equivalent.

Not all religious people are alike. Although many believe that there is a larger reality behind the veil, some—whether out of superstitious fear, mistakenly supposed duty, or other reasons—will close their eyes to any evidence that contradicts any cherished dogmas which are affixed to that belief; while others will come to terms to that evidence and release those aspects of their religion that don't conform to reality no matter how personally painful or frightening it may be.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by frabjous

Perhaps I'll throw out some suggestions. (I'm a philosophy professor, though the kind of philosophy I focus on is not really the kind you tend to read for the “fun” of it.)

Meditations on First Philosophy by Descartes. Far and away the most commonly assigned book into Introductory philosophy classes, since it covers all the basics, and introduces students to rigorous thinking so well (and of course was very influential in its own right).

Three Dialogues Between Hylas and Philonous by George Berkeley (18th century Irish philosopher). This is a beautifully written dialogue in which Berkeley (through the character Philonous) argues for immaterialism, the theory that no matter exists. The arguments are not really convincing in the end, but it may change the way you think nonetheless.

The Problems of Philosophy by Bertrand Russell. This piece is not at all representative of Russell's usual philosophy (for that, look at The Philosophy of Logical Atomism), but it's broader and more accessible, and is a good accessory to the others mentioned.

If you liked Popper, a good next stop would be A. J. Ayer's Language, Truth and Logic, which advances the logical positivist doctrines into more traditional areas of philosophy. These sorts of views are not taken very seriously any more, but in the middle of the century they were all the rage in the English speaking world.

I'd make some more recommendations if people are interested in special topics. E.g., for philosophy of science, read T. Kuhn's The Structure of Scientific Revolutions; for political philosophy, try John Rawls's A Theory of Justice; these are high level works but still accessible.

It's not really my cup of tea, but people interested in existentialism usually start with Sartre's Existentialism is a Humanism (though I think he himself wouldn't regard it a serious work). If you were more into Nietzsche, my favorite work of his is The Genealogy of Morals, though that's not saying much (--don't much care for that kind of stuff.)

I've never heard anything good from a academic philosopher about Simon Critchley's work (and I've read lots of bad stuff), though I haven't read it myself, so take that with a grain of salt.

Thanks for that list, frabjous. I've read a couple of those (I suppose everyone's read Descartes' Meditations), and many, many moons ago attempted John Rawls's A Theory of Justice; but after reading your post, perhaps now that I'm older—if no wiser—I'll give A Theory of Justice another shot.

[mike_bike_kite]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

others will come to terms to that evidence and release those aspects of their religion that don't conform to reality no matter how personally painful or frightening it may be.

If you release those aspects of religion that don't stand up to scientific method then what exactly is left?

[thinkpad]

For anyone curious/interested in Taoismen I would warmly recommend:
The Tao of Pooh and The Te of Piglet both by Benjamin Hoff
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tao_of_Pooh

As for more eastern spirituality, Yoga and Meditation I would recommend:
Autobiography of a Yogi:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobiography_of_a_Yogi

That being said here's an interesting post about Philosophy and Spirituality:
http://www.writespirit.net/blog/arch...ity-philosophy

Philosophy and spirituality share some common ideas, but also differ in their approach and practise of the truth. To some people there is a wide divergence between philosophy and spirituality. However, to some extent, they share some similarities and both have their role to play

[beppe]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

I act upon assumptions every day of my life, and yes, I am Mandrake! I thought you knew that.

I thought you acted under court orders! parole, that's the world.
Avatar number 04.

[beppe]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

A Theory of Justice; but after reading your post, perhaps now that I'm older—if no wiser—I'll give A Theory of Justice another shot.

Aka the dream. very ponderous stuff. To protect the weak and remain rich.
The Germans have a powerful social pact. And look what they did