Is the e-book threatening the future of our literary culture?

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by HarryT

One doesn't have to like DRM to accept the commercial reality of the fact that the big booksellers are always going to want to use it.

I wouldn't say always. If they get the idea they can do acceptable business without it, why use it?

If ePub doesn't support it, I suspect that that will only strengthen MobiPocket's position - they seem to be increasingly becoming the market leaders.

Because Mobi makes a version of the reader for just about everything, so there's less concern about whether you can read a Mobi title.

And since Amazon bought them and made the reader freeware, they have that much more momentum, because there is no cost of entry to be able to read Mobi titles. They're using the "Give the razor away free, and make money on the blades" model, which I think is sensible.
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Dennis

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I don't recall his [nekokami] saying it did...

I've stated in other threads (and perhaps implied in this one) that I think acquiring a darknet ebook file for a book one already owns in paper is in a different ethical category than acquiring a book one has not bought and has no intention of paying for, in any form. Morally, it seems to me to be similar to scanning a book one already owns; a transformation of format, rather than an increase in copies. On reflection, though, I'd be willing to pay typical Baen prices to convert my collection over time. I just can't afford to do it all at once for the backlog of books I now own (and can't currently access).

I think the most appropriate way to handle this would be for me to sell all my old books as used books and use the proceeds to buy non-DRM'd ebooks from Baen or similar. The difference in price would be approximately equal to the enhanced value of the ebooks -- at least, to me. Unfortunately, not all the books in my collection are even available in legal ebook formats yet-- that's a whole 'nother problem, though.

[Liviu_5]

Originally Posted by HarryT

One doesn't have to like DRM to accept the commercial reality of the fact that the big booksellers are always going to want to use it. If ePub doesn't support it, I suspect that that will only strengthen MobiPocket's position - they seem to be increasingly becoming the market leaders.

Exactly like all the music studios are always going to use DRM as they used to say. Well...

[Liviu_5]

Actually on second thought, since in 10-15 years there is a decent chance (Bezos predicted 2013 but I think that's a bit early) there will not be any big publisher around, and the members of an empty set have all the properties you care, the statement above will be factually true and vacuous simultaneously.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by nekokami

I've stated in other threads (and perhaps implied in this one) that I think acquiring a darknet ebook file for a book one already owns in paper is in a different ethical category than acquiring a book one has not bought and has no intention of paying for, in any form. Morally, it seems to me to be similar to scanning a book one already owns; a transformation of format, rather than an increase in copies.

I fear that can also be parsed as "I've bought that, so it's okay to steal this."

On reflection, though, I'd be willing to pay typical Baen prices to convert my collection over time. I just can't afford to do it all at once for the backlog of books I now own (and can't currently access).

I understand the problem. I own about 1,500 old fashioned vinyl LP records. There is no way I can afford to replace all of them with CDs, and many of them are obscure enough that they don't have CD re-issues, or there is only a "Best of" collection, or there is a CD reissue, but on a custom label at higher than normal prices.

I've been looking in the background at turntables specifically designed to rip to digital, though there will still be a fair bit of manual processing to break things into tracks and add the sort of info standard on CDs.

I also have a lot of old paperbacks of stuff that doesn't exist in ebook format: early Ace Doubles and the like. Some of it is now starting to hit Project Gutenberg as it lapses into PD, like the works of H. Beam Piper. I must say, however, that's it's a weird feeling to see stuff on Project Gutenberg from people you knew...

I think the most appropriate way to handle this would be for me to sell all my old books as used books and use the proceeds to buy non-DRM'd ebooks from Baen or similar. The difference in price would be approximately equal to the enhanced value of the ebooks -- at least, to me. Unfortunately, not all the books in my collection are even available in legal ebook formats yet-- that's a whole 'nother problem, though.

I suppose it depends upon how badly you want ebooks of the titles.
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Dennis

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

It might have been called that, but it didn't just "die" after playing: The idea was, you bought it, but you could only play it X number of times. Then it would stop playing, and you had to call or get online to Disney and pay again to have it released for another X viewings.

As reasonable as that might sound to some, the fact that kids often play their favorite movies over and over and over can mean reaching that X viewing in about 2 days. Parents went ballistic, and threatened to burn the Magic Kingdom to the ground before they'd buy into such a scheme. Disney subsequently ditched the idea faster than an ugly blind date.

A good lesson in "how to go too far with DRM."

Thanks Steve - I'd not come across that. That wasn't what I was thinking of. The thing I was thinking of were DVDs printed with a light-sensitive dye which were, I believe, sold from vending machines. Once you'd opened the sealed packet they were in they'd play for something like 48h and then light would degrade the dye and they'd no longer play. It was intended as a replacement for rentals.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Thanks Steve - I'd not come across that. That wasn't what I was thinking of. The thing I was thinking of were DVDs printed with a light-sensitive dye which were, I believe, sold from vending machines. Once you'd opened the sealed packet they were in they'd play for something like 48h and then light would degrade the dye and they'd no longer play. It was intended as a replacement for rentals.

That does sound familiar. More landfillable products. Aces idea.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

That does sound familiar. More landfillable products. Aces idea.

This is what I was thinking of:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexplay

but I was wrong in a few details. The disc is supplied vacuum-sealed and the dye reacts with the oxygen in the air to render it unplayable in about 48 hours.

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I fear that can also be parsed as "I've bought that, so it's okay to steal this."

That's where the disagreement seems to lie. If "that" and "this" are related, I see a distinction from "stealing." Particularly as one might make a point of not using both of them at the same time, and the item you're categorizing as being "stolen" is not a physical item and does not reduce the inventory of the seller. In terms of IP, one has paid for the license (via the paper book). As long as there is no simultaneous use, I don't see how this is logically different from scanning one's own book to digital format.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I suppose it depends upon how badly you want ebooks of the titles.

In my case, it's pretty critical. I have a substantial collection of p-books to which I do not have physical access. The only way I can re-read them (and I re-read a lot) is in ebook form. My plan is to inventory all the books this winter, a box at a time (I have a barcode scanner to make this process more feasible) and start the replacement project. I've located a nearby science fiction store that deals in second-hand books. It can be quite difficult to resell old books, or even get anyone, e.g. a library, to take them as donations. Where possible, the replacements will be legal copies. This is not always possible.

Meanwhile, whenever possible, I'm buying new titles in ebook form to start with. I just won't buy anything in a DRM that I can't remove. If I'm going to forgo paper copies, I need some assurance that I'll be able to re-read into perpetuity. (Again, I re-read a lot.)

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by nekokami

That's where the disagreement seems to lie. If "that" and "this" are related, I see a distinction from "stealing."

You do. Others may not.

Particularly as one might make a point of not using both of them at the same time, and the item you're categorizing as being "stolen" is not a physical item and does not reduce the inventory of the seller. In terms of IP, one has paid for the license (via the paper book). As long as there is no simultaneous use, I don't see how this is logically different from scanning one's own book to digital format.

It isn't, really. But the fact that you're being a good guy, and not using both at the same time (though how could you, really, if it's just you involved), isn't relative to the concern.

The issue isn't inventory shortage of a physical book to the retailer. It's the idea that once you have an unprotected electronic copy, you can then copy and share the book with others, and the seller loses revenue because those folks grab your free copy rather than buying one of their own.

That's why publishers use DRM to begin with.

In my case, it's pretty critical. I have a substantial collection of p-books to which I do not have physical access. The only way I can re-read them (and I re-read a lot) is in ebook form. My plan is to inventory all the books this winter, a box at a time (I have a barcode scanner to make this process more feasible) and start the replacement project. I've located a nearby science fiction store that deals in second-hand books. It can be quite difficult to resell old books, or even get anyone, e.g. a library, to take them as donations. Where possible, the replacements will be legal copies. This is not always possible.

Bar code scanners are handy things. I've been looking at a product called Readerware. It's a cross-platform book database, available for Windows, Mac OS/X, and Linux, with a Palm client to hold extracted subsets like your "want" list. One of the features is a bar code module. If you have a bar code scanner, the software can take the bar code info and use it to retrieve info about the book and fill in the DB entry.

Go here: http://www.readerware.com

Meanwhile, whenever possible, I'm buying new titles in ebook form to start with. I just won't buy anything in a DRM that I can't remove. If I'm going to forgo paper copies, I need some assurance that I'll be able to re-read into perpetuity. (Again, I re-read a lot.)

That makes perfect sense.
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Dennis

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

The issue isn't inventory shortage of a physical book to the retailer. It's the idea that once you have an unprotected electronic copy, you can then copy and share the book with others, and the seller loses revenue because those folks grab your free copy rather than buying one of their own.

I think you're talking about two different things here. In this paragraph, you're talking about the outcome of breaking DRM, and sharing files. When we started this bit of the conversation, we were talking about the ethics of acquiring digital copies of works already purchased in paper form. While I agree that these two activities are related, I don't believe the ethics are the same. As I've posted elsewhere, I can envision a "book swap club" that only allows its members to download files for books they can provide evidence that they own in paper. There is presently a club that does this for vision impaired readers. Their activities are both ethical and legal under current US copyright law.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I've been looking at a product called Readerware.

I have Readerware -- that's how I got my barcode reader. Then I moved, and I haven't had a chance to finish inventorying my collection. I'm trying to decide at this point if I want my primary database to be on Readerware, and backup to Librarything, or the other way around.

[astra]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

It's the idea that once you have an unprotected electronic copy, you can then copy and share the book with others, and the seller loses revenue because those folks grab your free copy rather than buying one of their own.

That's why publishers use DRM to begin with.

Dennis

You can download illegal copy of almost any book nowdays. So, they are loosing anyway. What is a solution?

I, for example, looking forward for a moment when there is an online shop like baen with the latest books available with baen prices, NON-DRM and of a format similar to RTF or HTML, so I can be sure I can re-read the book any time. From that moment on I will stop buying paper books at all and will spend my money on ebooks.
Right now I am still buying them, like the latest box set of HP books 1-6. What else can I do? Nothing.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by astra_lestat

You can download illegal copy of almost any book nowdays. So, they are loosing anyway. What is a solution?

Frankly, nothing.

The genie is out of that particular bottle and can't be stuffed back in. My personal feeling is that DRM efforts are ultimately futile and misguided. You issue the books without DRM, and you trust there's a large enough market willing to pay for content to support you.

The folks who grab the illegal copies aren't likely to have paid for them in the first place, so it's not like you're losing revenue you might otherwise have had. And while illegal copies are available, how much of the market knows where to get them? And will the format be one they can use? I see lots of books scanned, OCRed, and posted to various newsgroups. As plain text. The effort to get it into a format I would want to read on my PDA is far more trouble than I care to go through, and I'm someone with sufficient technical knowledge that I could do it.

I, for example, looking forward for a moment when there is an online shop like baen with the latest books available with baen prices, NON-DRM and of a format similar to RTF or HTML, so I can be sure I can re-read the book any time. From that moment on I will stop buying paper books at all and will spend my money on ebooks.
Right now I am still buying them, like the latest box set of HP books 1-6. What else can I do? Nothing.

That's what I do. Unlike some folks here, I don't want ebooks to replace paper books. I still happily buy, read, and collect those, and I'll buy a paper edition if no ebook edition exists, or sometimes in preference to an ebook edition if one does.

I like the convenience of a library in my pocket, but it doesn't have to be the same one that I have on my shelves.
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Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by nekokami

I think you're talking about two different things here. In this paragraph, you're talking about the outcome of breaking DRM, and sharing files. When we started this bit of the conversation, we were talking about the ethics of acquiring digital copies of works already purchased in paper form. While I agree that these two activities are related, I don't believe the ethics are the same.

We are talking about two different things, but they are inextricably linked. As I said, publishers fear that if you have an unprotected copy of an ebook, you will share it, which is why they impose DRM in the first place.

Meanwhile, the ethics are fairly straight-forward. Does the license permit you to get a free ebook copy of the book you have in paper, as in the Baen Free Library offerings (where people go back as often as not and buy the paper editions, which is why the Library exists), or in paper works also issued by the author in electronic form under a Creative Commons license (like all of Cory Doctorow's stuff)? Grab. Enjoy. Share.

If it isn't explicitly stated you have a right to do that, doing so is questionable, though I understand the motive and agree with the "This is for personal use and I don't share" practice.
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Dennis

[nekokami]

I don't think anything can be done about peer-to-peer filesharing or IRC, but websites where people upload texts could be pressured into checking for plagiarized content using the same method TurnItIn uses to check for plagiarized term papers in academia. It would require the publishers to submit their content for reference to the validation site, however.

This method could possibly also be used for newsgroups, with a cancelbot, though I think it wouldn't be very effective. But I think more people know how to get stuff from websites than P2P, IRC, and newsgroups combined.