Seriously thoughtful My message to the male population (and anyone else who cares to read)

[Spoon Man]

First I would like to state that this does not come out of religious conviction but experience and life.

It is unfortunate today that males are being raised up to self gratify. Too often I've seen guys (men, boys, older boys) operate in a relationship with the idea of "getting theirs" rather than actually caring for the other person. This is a grossly unfortunate phenomena today that is resulting in the degradation of female's self-esteem, particularly the young females.
Too often have I seen girls taken advantage of emotionally and sexually, too often have I seen girls resort to cutting, or burning, or some other form of self mutilation because the males in their lives were to focused on the size of their cock to stop and think about the emotions of this person whom they are taking advantage of.
Too often have I seen fathers to self absorbed to care about that little girl who is looking through the cracks in the door as he looks at porn instead of spending time with her, causing her to think that she has to look like them in order to get his attention, and as her personifies the rest of the male gender to her that is how she has to look to get any type of attention from them. Sure, she'll see that there are some guys who don't think this way, but she won't believe it because its been subconsciously ingrained.
Too often have I seen the other side, where fathers are too embarrassed to explain love to their children. These men don't want to educate their children about sex, instead they'd rather let someone else do it because they are too damned afraid to think that their little girl or little boy would be in an apple tree on her 16th birthday with her boyfriend who, once again, can't see past his dick.

The fact of the matter is that we have a job to protect, its a naturally occurring impulse in males, and we need to heed it more often than not.Sure, we live in the age of the liberated female who can take care of herself, but not all women subscribe to that belief, and its those that don't or can't that we need to protect, both emotionally and physically. I'm sick of seeing guys who don't consider their girlfriend's emotions when considering sex, or how she will actually feel when they break up. It infuriates me to no end when I here a girl say "My boyfriend wanted it so bad, so I had sex with him on his birthday and now I feel like shit because he broke up with me and I feel used and hurt and dirty."
Now, there are some that would say that said girl should have thought of this before, but that is a huge load of bull you've eaten. As bad as it may sound, a large number of females, particularly at a young age, can't see past their desire to be loved.

Its a sad thing that the majority of fathers can't see past their experiences and try to understand the woman that they sleep with so that they can understand their own daughter, and most of you won't believe what I'm writing or want to listen to it, but every word I write is true, it may need some polishing (this is day 20-something running on 3-4hrs sleep) but I shit you not, I've seen this all play out before and its heartbreaking. I've counseled too many girls who are broken inside because theirs not been a male man-enough to control his impulses and take care of her emotionally. I've seen too many girls stuck with abusive boyfriends because every once in a while he says something nice, but then he throws her on the bed/couch/floor and uses her, then hits her. So guys, keep it in your pants and consider the consequences for her, both emotionally and physically. If you can't think like that, then you need to step away from the relationship.

[Spoon Man]

Could a moderator add the "seriously thoughtful" tag to this please?

[happy_terd]

As a husband of 14 years and a father of 4 children I definitely agree.

Men need to focus more on their children and wife. Sex is a very large part of any relationship, but it can be unhealthy or one-sided in the relationship.

Very insightful for someone as young as you are.

[Spoon Man]

Now that I have permission from a friend, I would like to share her experience with her father and "the talk".

My friend, we shall call her "Angel" came home from school one day (she in the 6th grade at the time) to find her father waiting for her, evidently ready for a talk. Usually this meant a screaming rant or some such, but today he wanted to educate his daughter on sex. "Angel, it is time that you understand what men want from you." "What do you mean daddy?" He then produces a magazine of less than appropriate content. "Men want this from you, they want you to look like this and act like this, but you shouldn't until you are older. You can look through this and ask me any questions you like." Angel looked through it and didn't ask any questions, but went to her room and cried for a while. She did not look like those girls, but it was obviously what her daddy thought she should be like.
5 years later and a step-father, she still struggles with that. Her self-esteem is shot to hell and her ability to reason within a relationship is severely hurt. Shes starting to build up some self-respect and understanding, we've been working on it for almost 2yrs now, but its a slow and painful process for her.

__________________________________________________ ________________________
Thanks Happy_Terd.

[kindlekitten]

wow! see I look at my son, and his peers in their early 30s as well as my cousins in their mid to late 30s and see a completely different attitude than the one I grew up with. I see them as being MUCH more respectful to women, taking on more of the traditional women's chores and so on.

interesting

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

wow! see I look at my son, and his peers in their early 30s as well as my cousins in their mid to late 30s and see a completely different attitude than the one I grew up with. I see them as being MUCH more respectful to women, taking on more of the traditional women's chores and so on.

interesting

Sounds like sampling bias. As (apparently?) a councilor, the OP is seeing a strong skew in the "bad" direction.

[dsvick]

Originally Posted by happy_terd

As a husband of 14 years and a father of 4 children I definitely agree.

Men need to focus more on their children and wife. Sex is a very large part of any relationship, but it can be unhealthy or one-sided in the relationship.

Very insightful for someone as young as you are.

Husband and father of two and I agree as well, however I'm not so sure it as bad, or prevalent, as the post makes it sound.

Originally Posted by Spoon Man

Now that I have permission from a friend, I would like to share her experience with her father and "the talk"..
..
5 years later and a step-father, she still struggles with that. Her self-esteem is shot to hell and her ability to reason within a relationship is severely hurt. Shes starting to build up some self-respect and understanding, we've been working on it for almost 2yrs now, but its a slow and painful process for her.

Wow, that certainly is bad, and was handled in about as poor a way as can be done. However, the "Usually this meant a screaming rant " makes it sound like there were other issues there as well. I'm not discounting the problem just saying that I don't think we can make a generalization on it without a fair amount of study.

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

wow! see I look at my son, and his peers in their early 30s as well as my cousins in their mid to late 30s and see a completely different attitude than the one I grew up with. I see them as being MUCH more respectful to women, taking on more of the traditional women's chores and so on.

interesting

This is my experience as well, although my son isn't that old yet. I'm always doing dishes and what little laundry I'm allowed to do (after my spectacular mix up with a sweater, a t-shirt, and a pair of underwear). We routinely rotate chores and I cook dinner at least 2 or 3 times a week, and make cookies with my son. It is all about providing the right example for them so they can see you doing the right thing.

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

Sounds like sampling bias. As (apparently?) a councilor, the OP is seeing a strong skew in the "bad" direction.

they are the ones I am most intimate with. in my next level of familiarity, men I work with are MUCH more accepting of women in non traditional roles than their fathers were. the next level, working with the kids on the mountain... I see virtually no girl vs. boy issues that I would have expected 30 years ago. I gotta go with what I see. granted, I don't see everything, but it is a pretty good cross cultural shot of society... blue collar to pampered skiers/snowboarders

[Spoon Man]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

Sounds like sampling bias. As (apparently?) a councilor, the OP is seeing a strong skew in the "bad" direction.

I'm not a councilor, not professionally anyway.
The issues that I've seen have been on bad side of things, no doubt. However, I see the issue as being masked some times. People you would never think of being as the ones with said problems do have them.

Now, my experience is with the mid-upper middle class, as well as the lower class. I'm not saying that there aren't good guys, or that guys are all like this, but there are a decent enough number of them. KK, you are right in seeing that trend, its definitely there, and I think that these issues can come along with that.

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by Spoon Man

I'm not a councilor, not professionally anyway.
The issues that I've seen have been on bad side of things, no doubt. However, I see the issue as being masked some times. People you would never think of being as the ones with said problems do have them.

Now, my experience is with the mid-upper middle class, as well as the lower class. I'm not saying that there aren't good guys, or that guys are all like this, but there are a decent enough number of them. KK, you are right in seeing that trend, its definitely there, and I think that these issues can come along with that.

that is good to know as I have been pleasantly surprised with this observation!

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

they are the ones I am most intimate with. in my next level of familiarity,

I meant the OP was seeing selection bias.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by Spoon Man

First I would like to state that this does not come out of religious conviction but experience and life.

And I know I'm opening a whole new can of hornets, and I swear that I don't deliberately try to make ripples, but I view religion to be part of the problem with the treatment of women and girls, not part of the solution. Setting aside the obvious issues in Islamic countries since we are talking about the US, my religious background was from a Southern Baptist area of the country-- and with Southern Baptists, the lesser status of women is codified in their official tenants of core beliefs:

http://atheism.about.com/od/baptists...ptistwomen.htm

And I recall this thread that I saw a while back which truly saddened me-- seeing this girl brainwashed into submission and treatment as less of a person-- by the official policy of her religious sect.

http://www.livingwaterke.com/2009/08...ver-their.html

And this story that I saw earlier today:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100528/...urch_rape_case

If you want a solution to mistreatment of girls and women, Christianity is NOT the place to look.

[Spoon Man]

Originally Posted by dsvick

Wow, that certainly is bad, and was handled in about as poor a way as can be done. However, the "Usually this meant a screaming rant " makes it sound like there were other issues there as well. I'm not discounting the problem just saying that I don't think we can make a generalization on it without a fair amount of study.

It is all about providing the right example for them so they can see you doing the right thing.

I'm not saying that this particular case is common, I pray to god its not and I don't believe it to be. However, it is something that I've heard more than once. I don't think that there should be generalization made here, I was attempting to make a point that this could happen more often if the other above issues were not addressed.

However, I think there is a mis-understanding as to what I meant to get across. I find this problem to be only in relationships, not every day things. Same friend as an example, had a boyfriend a little while back. This guy was good with people, he helped out, help carry things, gave rides, and so on. However, in the relationship things were a little bit different. He came into the relationship a little pushy on the physical side, tried to slide his hand down her pants on date 3, and when she tried to talk about her issues he blew her off because he "Didn't want to be so serious because dating is about having fun."
Now, before they were dating he and I were actually pretty good friends. It was a matter of him just wanting to "have fun". Now, I can't say for certain that this is the way that all guys are, I don't have that much experience, but it was definitely the prevalent mindset of guys in school, and unfortunately, in very many of the churches I've attended as well. I've seen very many complaints about this phenomena online as well. If this mindset is left unchecked it can definitely lead to the other problems as well.

[Spoon Man]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

And I know I'm opening a whole new can of hornets, and I swear that I don't deliberately try to make ripples, but I view religion to be part of the problem with the treatment of women and girls, not part of the solution. Setting aside the obvious issues in Islamic countries since we are talking about the US, my religious background was from a Southern Baptist area of the country-- and with Southern Baptists, the lesser status of women is codified in their official tenants of core beliefs:

http://atheism.about.com/od/baptists...ptistwomen.htm

And I recall this thread that I saw a while back which truly saddened me-- seeing this girl brainwashed into submission and treatment as less of a person-- by the official policy of her religious sect.

http://www.livingwaterke.com/2009/08...ver-their.html

And this story that I saw earlier today:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100528/...urch_rape_case

If you want a solution to mistreatment of girls and women, Christianity is NOT the place to look.

Alright, those are extreme cases, but your not wrong in your view point (IMO) to state that the solution does not lie with religion. I did not say that it did at all, in fact I was trying to distance this from religion entirely. If you'd like to PM me, I've no problem discussing with you the issues of various sects of Christianity.

[Spoon Man]

Something that just occured to me, I think the current divorce rate (52% in the US if I'm not mistaken) I believe has a lot to do with this issue.