Catherynne Valente takes down her own award-winning ebook

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

Please keep our guidelines in mind when you are posting. You are free to disagree with others' opinions, however we ask that you show respect for others and avoid personal attacks and name-calling. Calling people "thieves" is not acceptable.

If you would like to refresh your memory of the guidelines, you can take a look at them at any time by clicking on "Guidelines" at the bottom of any page, or just click here.

Thank you for helping us keep the discussion friendly and civilised.

AH, I see where it's coming from now.

Zelda, Someone who takes something that is not theirs, is a thief. Do you have another definition?

Please spend your time enforcing the guidelines against personal attacks if you would please. Please read back through the postings in this thread rather the focus on one that someone has "reported"

Take this one for instance: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...&postcount=112

And this one (Particularly the end) for example: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...&postcount=109

And what about this little gem: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...3&postcount=92

One more just for good measure: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...3&postcount=83

Let's keep the thread on topic and get ride of the personal attacks and discuss this in a civilized manner or close the thread.

Thank you.

[Krystian Galaj]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

It is very easy to claim a "vast swathe of the population's opinion" to be on your side. They are not.

Any sort of factual support for this claim?

Originally Posted by HansTWN

Sure, if you pose the question as "do you want free stuff and stick it to those greedy corporations" most will say yes, without thinking. But if you turn it around and ask "do you think authors and all those involved in the book publishing and book selling industries should work for free" then the answer would turn out to be very different.

I expect that if people in general had more knowledge of the world around them, vast majority of population would see no difference between them and fanfic authors - and those create for free. If they only know about bookstores, and paper books, and authors creating for money, they're not really well informed. Answers based on people's ignorance aren't very convincing, even if made by lots of people.

I don't see why you consider book publishing and book selling industries neccessary - if their business model becomes obsolete, and stops bringing money, people will migrate to jobs that pay and as a society we'll be overall more efficient.

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by kennyc

AH, I see where it's coming from now.

Zelda, Someone who takes something that is not theirs, is a thief. Do you have another definition?

Please spend your time enforcing the guidelines against personal attacks if you would please. Please read back through the postings in this thread rather the focus on one that someone has "reported"

Thank you.

Kenny, as someone who loves to read and reads a lot (you must be, or you wouldn't be here), I am sure you understand and can appreciate the power of words. Whether or not copyright infringement can be considered theft is arguable (from a purely legal standpoint, I'll point out that it's not), however THAT question is open for discussion here. There is however an important difference between discussing a person's viewpoint, and attacking the person themselves, which I am sure you can appreciate. The first is absolutely fine, the second is not acceptable. Calling our members "thieves" is not acceptable, even if you disagree with their point of view.

And, since I have not had time to read this entire thread, I'll add that the above goes for EVERYONE, not only Kenny. As we say in our guidelines, please disagree with the post, not the poster, and avoid personal attacks and name-calling.

Kenny, specifically, if you feel a particular post is inappropriate or a personal attack, please report it rather than responding in kind. You have reported posts in the past, so I know you know how to do it. As for the specific posts you linked, I can see that they are disagreeing with your ideas, but I don't see a personal attack in them.

Now, please let's get back to the discussion, but keep it polite and civil, EVERYONE.

[Krystian Galaj]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

Obviously the world wouldn't end. But there would just be one more gross injustice in the world. We would inflict this injustice on those who contribute to our enjoyment. And quite frankly, in this situation I care more about the authors and others who work for us then those in society who are just looking for a free ride.

Well, all right. Let's assume the piracy is nonexistent for a moment. You still have competition between people who demand money for their effort, people who create and share the result for free, and public domain books. Would you call this competition an injustice for the ones who want to be paid?

With time, there'll be more and more free creations available, and more and more public domain books. So, piracy or not, sooner or later, there will come a time where overwhelming majority of good books are free. So why would anyone buy new ones then? To keep money-for-creation model feasible, we would have to replace copyright with totalitarian regime that controls all people's actions in the interest of selected few. How does that make sense?

[Iphinome]

Originally Posted by Krystian Galaj

I don't see why you consider book publishing and book selling industries neccessary - if their business model becomes obsolete, and stops bringing money, people will migrate to jobs that pay and as a society we'll be overall more efficient.

Basically ya I agree, though I see a place for analog copies maybe just not as big of one. You don't need technology to copy them, an abby of monks will do. Who wants to let children near even rugged electronic devices, no problem reading the file format, something to bludgeon you little brother with... But if the market reduces the size of those industries then that's life nothing lasts forever, except maybe Disney's Copyrights.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Krystian Galaj

Any sort of factual support for this claim?


I expect that if people in general had more knowledge of the world around them, vast majority of population would see no difference between them and fanfic authors - and those create for free. If they only know about bookstores, and paper books, and authors creating for money, they're not really well informed. Answers based on people's ignorance aren't very convincing, even if made by lots of people.

I don't see why you consider book publishing and book selling industries neccessary - if their business model becomes obsolete, and stops bringing money, people will migrate to jobs that pay and as a society we'll be overall more efficient.

Ever heard of editors? How do you make any book stand out? Do you really want a world with a million authors who all just self publish on the web? How will anyone ever choose? And if it happens, then the work of the publishers just will be taken over by "reviewers' websites" and you authors will have to shell out to get good reviews or top spaces on the search sites. So, we come back to Google, Apple, and Co.

And please tell me, what "productive" work do you imagine will be left in the Western world if intellectual property is not being protected? Most of the jobs that produce physical goods are in Asia, what is left for you?

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

... Whether or not copyright infringement can be considered theft is arguable (from a purely legal standpoint, I'll point out that it's not), however THAT question is open for discussion here. There is however an important difference between discussing a person's viewpoint, and attacking the person themselves, which I am sure you can appreciate. The first is absolutely fine, the second is not acceptable. Calling our members "thieves" is not acceptable, even if you disagree with their point of view.

And, since I have not had time to read this entire thread, I'll add that the above goes for EVERYONE, not only Kenny. As we say in our guidelines, please disagree with the post, not the poster, and avoid personal attacks and name-calling.

Kenny, specifically, if you feel a particular post is inappropriate or a personal attack, please report it rather than responding in kind. You have reported posts in the past, so I know you know how to do it.

Thank you Zelda and I will report (religiously at this point) any posts I feel are personal attacks. (Please see the list above for starters ).

As far at the "Thief" characterization as I've bolded above. I have never called any member individually or directly a thief but certainly have characterized the behavior of those who download books from the darknet and illegal sources thieves (a behavior which is SPECIFICALLY) prohibited by MR at all levels.

My belief as I've stated when this topic comes up, is as I've stated above and in other threads "Taking my property without my consent is theft."

Again thank you and I do hope we can discuss this and any topic civilly and without the personal attacks. I do not make personal attacks and would expect the same from others.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Krystian Galaj

Well, all right. Let's assume the piracy is nonexistent for a moment. You still have competition between people who demand money for their effort, people who create and share the result for free, and public domain books. Would you call this competition an injustice for the ones who want to be paid?

With time, there'll be more and more free creations available, and more and more public domain books. So, piracy or not, sooner or later, there will come a time where overwhelming majority of good books are free. So why would anyone buy new ones then? To keep money-for-creation model feasible, we would have to replace copyright with totalitarian regime that controls all people's actions in the interest of selected few. How does that make sense?

They will not be free. Are Google's services free? No, you pay for them by giving up your privacy, your data. And Google makes money off your data. The same thing will happen to books. It is NOT free.

And why can't they exist side by side? Maybe we should have a poll. Let people choose. Would they rather have a free book with an ad on every second page or pay a few dollars to have an ad free book?

You may well be right. A lot of people don't care about privacy, a lot of people don't mind to be bombarded with ads everywhere they go 24 hours a day. If that is the majority, then the ad-supported versions will win. But don't tell me it is free.

[Iphinome]

And please tell me, what "productive" work do you imagine will be left in the Western world if intellectual property is not being protected? Most of the jobs that produce physical goods are in Asia, what is left for you?[/QUOTE]

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet...ets_4&_lang=en

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

A "creators' surcharge on internet access, just as everybody already pays a surcharge on all storage media in Europe (the proceeds are being distributed to the media companies by a government agency).

Not "all" storage media, but close enough. And you know what? It's working fine, by and large. The only problem, really, is that publishers are increasingly trying to take away (by trivial technical means + making circumvention a criminal offense) the very rights (making and sharing of private copies, time and location shifting etc) this blanket tax is supposed to cover; you know, as in having your cake and eat it, too.

So, if we just throw up our hands and say "we can't stop the tide", we will sign over everything to Apple, Google, etc.

You know, there is the normative power of the factual. It's not our job to help the publishing industry to preserver their outdated business models, after all.

[Iphinome]

Originally Posted by kennyc

As far at the "Thief" characterization as I've bolded above. I have never called any member individually or directly a thief but certainly have characterized the behavior of those who download books from the darknet and illegal sources thieves (a behavior which is SPECIFICALLY) prohibited by MR at all levels.

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...698#post919698

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by rogue_librarian

Not "all" storage media, but close enough. And you know what? It's working fine, by and large. The only problem, really, is that publishers are increasingly trying to take away (by trivial technical means + making circumvention a criminal offense) the very rights (making and sharing of private copies, time and location shifting etc) this blanket tax is supposed to cover; you know, as in having your cake and eat it, too.



You know, there is the normative power of the factual. It's not our job to help the publishing industry to preserver their outdated business models, after all.

Is it working? So, more work for the politicians. They decide now how to distribute the tax payers money to those artists that are in favor with the party currently ruling the country. If you are fine with that -- then you can say it is working. But don't you think the publishers are getting their share? They are politically well connected and will be having an easier time than they do now. No need to sell the books to the public, just wine and dine the bureaucrats.

I, personally, prefer not to pay a surcharge when I use a DVD, an SD card, or a USB stick to burn personal or business files.

So, you are paying for a bloated bureaucracy that decides who gets your money. How is that so much better? When I buy a book at least I know my money goes to ensure that there will be more books of the kind I like from the authors I like.

I don't live in Europe anymore and the prospect of such a system would horrify me, but the file sharing community may well push us in such a direction.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Iphinome

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...698#post919698

Please discuss the topic at hand and stop with the attempts at character assassination and the personal attacks.

The above link has nothing to do with the topic at hand (an Author removing a book from her website).

Nor does the O.P. have anything to do with copyright or public domain as has been pointed out extensively in this thread.

PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC.

Thank You.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Iphinome

And please tell me, what "productive" work do you imagine will be left in the Western world if intellectual property is not being protected? Most of the jobs that produce physical goods are in Asia, what is left for you?

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet...ets_4&_lang=en[/QUOTE]

What does this have to do with the topic of this thread?

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

Is it working?

By and large, as I've said.

They decide now how to distribute the tax payers money to those artists that are in favor with the party currently ruling the country.

That's actually not quite how it works. It's pretty much self-governed by the industry, the state doesn't get involved very much, neither in the collection nor the distribution. It's a "tax" only inasmuch it is a pecuniary burden laid upon buyers of said media, an enforced contribution.

If you are fine with that -- then you can say it is working. But don't you think the publishers are getting their share?

I suppose they do, yes. There's a whole system of collecting societies. In turn it's perfectly legal to copy a few pages from a book, or even the whole book if it's out of print, rip my CDs to MP3s and share them with my friends, etc.

I, personally, prefer not to pay a surcharge when I use a DVD, an SD card, or a USB stick to burn personal or business files.

We are talking about cents here, literally. Even so, if you only use your media for stuff that's not covered by other people's rights you can get that back. Few people bother but it's possible. I suppose large companies do it.

So, you are paying for a bloated bureaucracy that decides who gets your money.

Again, not quite.

How is that so much better?

It's a blanket license for a lot of stuff that would otherwise be illegal.

I don't live in Europe anymore and the prospect of such a system would horrify me

Spoken like a true American. I take my hat off to you, sir.