Seriously thoughtful How do you plan to prove you are a citizen?

[Joebill]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

"Sigh. Come here legally. Otherwise, no."

When in fact, what you are actually saying is "Do not come here", since that is the effect of the law.

And right, thanks for clarifying you're simply xenophobic.

I couldn't be xenophobic.

I'm Comanche, Cherokee, Scot-Irish, Shoshoni, Netherlands, and Norman. That is just one side of my family.

I don't like spammers and computer virus writers either. Doesn't matter to me where they are from or who they are, put them in a prison cell and weld the door shut.

Illegals go home.

Oh, my previous dad, parents divorced when I was 3 years old, was a POW/slave laborer of the Axis. i.e. the Japanese.

Do I hold that against the Japanese ?

No, I don't.

And I certainly believe the Japanese-Americans were treated badly, and illegally/immoraly, during WW2.

Oh, since you live in the UK, look up your own history.

The Brits kept their German prisoners for years after WW2 was over. Put them to work as manual laborers. Did they get paid ? Or were they just kept in slavery ? I honestly don't know.

But make sure your nation's hands are clean before ya go tossing things at others.

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by Joebill

legals go home.

That is what you are saying by supporting this bill. Period. It's the effect.
No amount of sophistry on your part makes it any less true.

If there was a different bill, my view might be different. But I can only look at what is actually proposed, and that's that simply visiting a library in Arizona might well get a legal immigrant deported from America once this bill goes live.

And I'd point my ancestors were considered immigrants into the UK at the time of WW2, so your point is simply not applicable to me.

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by Joebill

No water out there.

All viable airable land was given away over 150 years ago, back in the 1800s.

There was no water in Las Vegas. There was no water in Los Angeles. There is no water in many places in the west and south west. That didn't stop people from moving in, bringing in water, and turning them green. People wanted to live there so they overcame the problem.

Stitchawl

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

That is what you are saying by supporting this bill. Period. It's the effect.
No amount of sophistry on your part makes it any less true.

If there was a different bill, my view might be different. But I can only look at what is actually proposed, and that's that simply visiting a library in Arizona might well get a legal immigrant deported from America once this bill goes live.

And I'd point my ancestors were considered immigrants into the UK at the time of WW2, so your point is simply not applicable to me.

No. You are simple wrong on this. You really have little concept or understanding of the issue unless you have lived here in the midst of it.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

There was no water in Las Vegas. There was no water in Los Angeles. There is no water in many places in the west and south west. That didn't stop people from moving in, bringing in water, and turning them green. People wanted to live there so they overcame the problem.

Stitchawl

But it is true that water rights are a very different matter these days. Many think it will be a primary issue affecting us this century.

[Joebill]

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

There was no water in Las Vegas. There was no water in Los Angeles. There is no water in many places in the west and south west. That didn't stop people from moving in, bringing in water, and turning them green. People wanted to live there so they overcame the problem.

Stitchawl

The water rights issue is very interesting. The only consistant water is down in the aquifer. Which takes thousands of years to replenish. Yes, the rain is that low in amount.

As for the Colorado River, where lots of water comes from... sorry, I had to laugh there.

The water flow of the Colorado River was measured in 1935. From those measurements, in acre feet, was decided how much water would be allocated to each state that borders that river.

Only one problem.

According to tree ring data, 1935 was the wettest year in over 500 years.

That is why states that border the Colorado River are in legal battles over that water.

In the 1800s, people would be murdered over water rights.

So court battles are an improvement.

As for all those water displays in Vegas, it is a big waste of water. Those should be shut down and the casino owners that created them put in prison for wasting water.

I grew up in central Texas, therefore I know what a years long drought is like. Eight years to be exact. People went to jail for watering their lawns.

As for what would happen if all that land was put under the plow again. Just look at the Dust Bowl. That wasn't just bad farming practices. It stopped raining.

[Joebill]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

That is what you are saying by supporting this bill. Period. It's the effect.
No amount of sophistry on your part makes it any less true.

If there was a different bill, my view might be different. But I can only look at what is actually proposed, and that's that simply visiting a library in Arizona might well get a legal immigrant deported from America once this bill goes live.

And I'd point my ancestors were considered immigrants into the UK at the time of WW2, so your point is simply not applicable to me.

I said illegals go home.

Please don't misquote me. It is rude.

[DawnFalcon]

No, what's rude is to repeat a lie repeatedly in the hope that people will fall for it. The effect is the effect, trying to state this bill will do otherwise is simply wrong. It WILL impact many legal immigrants. Sorry, formerly legally immigrants, now simply unwanted right alongside the illegals.

And if you want an insult, though, "Ah, so you're in training to be a politician, that's why you're lying".

[Joebill]

Actually, droughts are kinda funny in a way.

I live in an area that gets far more rainfall than where I grew up.

Here, if they don't get rain for 2 weeks, they claim drought.

A drought isn't two weeks of no rain. Under those conditions, the webbing between my toes goes away.

I have been through a 8 year drought. Two weeks is nothing.

There is no way to explain it to people who haven't had their rain drop from 48 inches of rain per year to less than 10 inches of rain per year, for 8 years.

[Joebill]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

No, what's rude is to repeat a lie repeatedly in the hope that people will fall for it. The effect is the effect, trying to state this bill will do otherwise is simply wrong. It WILL impact many legal immigrants. Sorry, formerly legally immigrants, now simply unwanted right alongside the illegals.

And if you want an insult, though, "Ah, so you're in training to be a politician, that's why you're lying".

I have repeatedly said it will affect legals.

If you don't see that, well, you aren't trying.

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

But go on, I want to see you defend that, and the sort of thought process behind it.

(And, to be selective about the bigotry you oppose is to be insincere in your approach)

Nope. I have a rule about not participating in discussions with someone who has descended into name calling. Which reminds me.

As a moderator, I have to chastise you for calling people a liar, xenophobic, and two-faced. Stop it.

Nate the great, moderator

P.S. @everyone else Thank you for remaining civil.

[DawnFalcon]

If they don't want to be called that, then they should not behave in that way.

Trying to deny the effect of what they call for is simply denial, not something which deserves bonus points.

I can understand complaints about illegal immigrants, even when those perceptions - such as the crime rate - are basically illusionary (see the article I linked), but when bitching starts about the legal immigrants there is a problem with that society.

[Alexander Turcic]

Folks, please let's all take a deep breathe and relax. If it appears that we cannot discuss our disagreements here without animosity and personal attacks, we have no choice but to close this thread. You are free to express yourself, but please do so in a supportive manner without resorting to personal attacks.

Remember, when things get controversial please disagree with the opinion, not the person.

Also, don't be surprised if someone's opinion opposes yours - we are an international forum, we have a wide diversity of cultural backgrounds, traditions, and legal systems. Members may have different laws and practices. In short: try to be sensitive to others when you post, and tolerant of others when you read their posts. But what am I saying - of course you know this already because it has been all covered in our guidelines.

Thank you!

Alex
MobileRead Team

[Robert Minneman]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Agreed. I don't know the percentage, but the crimes and perpetrators here in Colorado are similar.

I fully support whatever actions we need to take to stop illegal immigration. I think the AZ law is a good start.

Yeah I feel sorry for you Coloradoan's... Wasn't Denver declared a "sanctuary city" where the Mayor forbade the police to enforce ANY immigration checks?

Of course there's that case where there was an illegal immigrant with 17 prior traffic citations who was eventually/finally arrested and jailed after having run over and killed a mother and her two children.

I guess when it comes to illegal immigrants and people so afraid that a police officer might 'abuse their power', or 'incorrectly profile' someone, the 18th time is the charm?!?!

[Robert Minneman]

What I'm beginning to be confused on here is the following:

It appears that some of you are afraid that the AZ law enforcement community would suddenly start acting like children at a birthday party with a skyfull of mexican pinata's everywhere and immigrants, legal or otherwise, or anyone who even resembled a hispanic would suddenly start getting beat...

Please explain to me prior what, to this law coming into affect, was preventing them from already being so abusive?

It also appears some of you are upset that AZ would start deporting people, on the spot for not having appropriate status. Please point to the part of the law that has AZ deporting people.

Also some of you are just upset that legal immigrants could be asked for proof of their immigration status at all. Please explain to me what laws or expectations these non-native born citizens had that they were inviolate and forever free from having law enforcement ensure that they were abiding by ALL the laws of this nation.

Quite frankly I'm tired of the press running around comparing how AZ is now the new incartnation of the Nazi Germany, or how illegal immigrants are the new hallaucasted jews of the 21st century.