Seriously thoughtful How do you plan to prove you are a citizen?

[GlennD]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

And no, "probable cause" is precisely what this law dosn't require.

It does now.

They made some changes on Thursday.

But one of the changes -- which had been adopted by state lawmakers Thursday night -- says police could stop suspected illegal immigrants only while enforcing some other law or ordinance.

An officer could only ask about an immigrant's legal status, for example, while investigating that person for speeding, loitering or some other offense.

[DawnFalcon]

Ah, I missed that. And that's only police, bear in mind, not every other state employee who has precisely the same responsibility as before.

[Joebill]

One of my relatives, from Canada, has the proper paperwork.

Took him 3 years to move here.

Why ?

The Immigration folks only allow so many green cards per year. They estimate the number of illegals that came in during a year, and subtract that amount from the number of green cards they issue to legal immigrants.

It would have taken him less than 6 months to get here otherwise. Ya see, he married my sister, while she was in Canada a few years ago.

Some of my friends wonder why I am not 'torn in two' about this. I'll get that in a moment.

My feeling is if someone wants to live under the laws of the US, they should obey those laws.

Torn in two ?

I'm Native American and European ancestry.

But I don't feel torn in two over this. Want to live here and not a citizen, apply like evey one else.

Note: There are illegals who aren't Hispanic.

Chinese, a number of illegals who are European who arrived without applying are here, lots of other folks.

The entire planet cannot live here, there isn't room.

No streets paved with gold, yet I have encountered, on a few trips outside the US to Europe, people who do think beyond all doubt there are streets made of gold in the United States.

There aren't any.

Why yes, I was threatened with a knife because I wouldn't tell them what cities in the US had gold streets.

Sigh. Come here legally. Otherwise, no.

edit:

One reason I don't like to discuss politics.

[DawnFalcon]

Joebill - Yes, so this bill screws over (and I cannot think anything but deliberately from how carefully it's worded) a LOT of legal immigrants, because of paperwork processing delays outside their control.

But yet you're supporting it. Two-faced.

[Joebill]

No, the illegals are causing paperwork problems for the legals.

If there were no illegals, this bill wouldn't have been thought of, certainly not signed into law

I had to spend days looking for paperwork to prove I am a US citizen, for my present job and my previous job. There is even a government web site where I create a login. Then I go to HR and show them my paperwork. Then they login to the governmetn web site and verify I am an American. Just so I can go to work. As a US Citizen I shouldn't have to show my birth certificate to anyone to prove who I am.

Yet, due to the illegals, I have to, so I can become authorized to work here.

They have no right to complain. They brought this onto eveyone in the United States.

If I have to prove I'm here legally, and I am, then they have to show papers to.

There are millions of illegals here. I want them to go through the same proof I have to go through.

[DawnFalcon]

Self-justification and sophistry.

This bill specifically causes problems for people with their federal paperwork out of date, which is, again, common (and the Federal government, to be plain, do not consider this a problem for the people involved, since it's the Federal government's own fault). You, plain and simple, want them to get into legal trouble and deported, which is the likely result of being in AZ after this as a legal immigrant, since federal processing delays on paperwork are only increasing.

If you're in that situation and say organised crime know? Oh yea, you're screwed one way or another. What a wonderful thing to wish onto legal immigrants.

(And guess what? I have to prove I can work in the EU as well. I'm not calling for mass deportions...)

[Joebill]

Sophistry ? I doubt it.

sophism: a deliberately invalid argument displaying ingenuity in reasoning in the hope of deceiving someone

Nope, I don't do that.

I made a valid argument. If they want to live under our laws, they should obey them.

Nothing invalid about that.

I obey the laws, they can to.

[DawnFalcon]

You're claiming that this won't affect legal immigrants. This is completely untrue. You are doing this, and lying your head off in the hope that people won't notice. They have.

You can be a perfectly legal immigrant, and if your papers are out of date because of federal processing delays - something you have no control over, and does not in any way per the federal government make your presence in America illegal or mean you won't proceed towards residency - then you're committing a crime simply by being in Arizona.

Absolutely sophistry. Strong, blatant, hysteric sophistry even. The only option you're giving them is "leave Arizona". That is what you are, directly, calling for by endorsing this law. Period.

(I don't care about the "wider issues", I'm discussing this law and it's impact)

[Stitchawl]

What is this business about the US not having enough room? Have you driven from St. Louis to San Francisco recently? There seems to be nothing BUT room! Hundreds and hundreds of miles of empty land. Hundreds of thousands of acres sitting, doing nothing. Let people develop it. Let them work for their homes. Another 'Homestead Act' just for people wanting to immigrate. U.S. citizens don't have to support them or provide for them. Let them in, but let them create their own living/working environments. Our fathers did this before us. Can't the immigrants do it today? If people are willing to work and pay taxes, why not put all the empty land to use? It costs us nothing.

Stitchawl

[Joebill]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

You're claiming that this won't affect legal immigrants. This is completely untrue. You are doing this, and lying your head off in the hope that people won't notice. They have.

You can be a perfectly legal immigrant, and if your papers are out of date because of federal processing delays - something you have no control over, and does not in any way per the federal government make your presence in America illegal or mean you won't proceed towards residency - then you're committing a crime simply by being in Arizona.

Absolutely sophistry. Strong, blatant, hysteric sophistry even. The only option you're giving them is "leave Arizona". That is what you are, directly, calling for by endorsing this law. Period.

(I don't care about the "wider issues", I'm discussing this law and it's impact)

Of course it will affect legals. Why would you claim I said otherwise ?

I have no problems with the law, I'm here legally.

1) one side of my family by viture of being here for thousands of years before Europeans set foot here.

2) being born here of American parents.

[Joebill]

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

What is this business about the US not having enough room? Have you driven from St. Louis to San Francisco recently? There seems to be nothing BUT room! Hundreds and hundreds of miles of empty land. Hundreds of thousands of acres sitting, doing nothing. Let people develop it. Let them work for their homes. Another 'Homestead Act' just for people wanting to immigrate. U.S. citizens don't have to support them or provide for them. Let them in, but let them create their own living/working environments. Our fathers did this before us. Can't the immigrants do it today? If people are willing to work and pay taxes, why not put all the empty land to use? It costs us nothing.

Stitchawl

No water out there.

All viable airable land was given away over 150 years ago, back in the 1800s.

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by Joebill

Of course it will affect legals. Why would you claim I said otherwise ?

"Sigh. Come here legally. Otherwise, no."

When in fact, what you are actually saying is "Do not come here", since that is the effect of the law.

And right, thanks for clarifying you're simply xenophobic.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

"Sigh. Come here legally. Otherwise, no."

When in fact, what you are actually saying is "Do not come here", since that is the effect of the law.

And right, thanks for clarifying you're simply xenophobic.

No, do not come here ILLEGALLY!

That's a completely different thing than going through the established process.

You guys have the same issues over there based on what I'm hearing in the debates.

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

"Sigh. Come here legally. Otherwise, no."

When in fact, what you are actually saying is "Do not come here", since that is the effect of the law.

And right, thanks for clarifying you're simply xenophobic.

WHY do you have such a problem with that? It's not _your_ country.

[DawnFalcon]

Nate, have you actually read my specific complaint?

The issue is that there are years-long waits for processing in many parts of the US system, and many of them don't issue new paperwork until that processing is done. While the Federal government considers people waiting to be legally in the country, their origional paperwork is out of date.

Those people are committing a crime because of this law, and that crime can and will affect their immigration status! Legal immigrants, allways committing a crime because of something completely outside their control!

But go on, I want to see you defend that, and the sort of thought process behind it.

(And, to be selective about the bigotry you oppose is to be insincere in your approach)