Seriously thoughtful Electric Cars : BYD

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I suspect the price differential is a taxation issue. I don't believe that diesel is inherently more expensive to produce than petrol. They are generally the same price (to within a penny a litre) here.

Diesel used to be cheaper in the U.S., which kicked off the initial U.S. diesel car boom in the 70s... but prices have risen quickly in the last decade, faster than gas. More likely, it's the subsidies granted to the oil companies keeping the price of gas down.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Wodin, you're dealing with the "urban island/perfect world" mindset. Non-standard houses, long distances between urban centers, rural needs, are just problems to be glossed over.

Every problem is a problem to be fixed. Those who complain about being outside the majority whose problems are being addressed, may get their additional problems addressed; but those who denigrate and criticize the majority for not being like them rarely get sympathy from that majority.

One bubble-baby to another...

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

I'd take one of these.



Mainly because the Carver/Venture One is being held up indefinitely...

[Lady Blue]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

I'd take one of these.



Mainly because the Carver/Venture One is being held up indefinitely...

But ... but ... it's butt fell off.

[wodin]

The bottom line is and will always be; how does this affect me?

The answer, in my case is: not at all since there are significant practical and economic reasons for me to not have an electric vehicle.

Should conditions change, I will re-look the issues.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Lady Blue

But ... but ... it's butt fell off.

Yes.. it's a cheeky little car...

[yvanleterrible]

In 1914, 30 years or so after the invention of electric cars, someone had the bright idea of putting PV cells on top of a vehicle. Of course they weren't enough to propel the car, but the idea was there.

I believe that for an EV to succeed, it has to be sold with a carport covered with solar cells. Those cells should provide for a full charge every day.

Most commuters drive less than 40km a day. That's half the average autonomy of most EVs. If someone needs more in one trip, rentals ICEs are available in any form shape and size.

I've been wanting and EV since the first petroleum crash in 1973 and even then EVs existed and provided decent transportation options. But they were "tinker made". Why is it that we still cannot get an EV today in Canada?

GM announced last week that they were on their way to financial recovery. Does that mean that they won't oblige the American government with its wish of putting more EVs on the road now? I'm very afraid that it will be the case again...
BTW the Chevy Volt is a joke... A production of 1,500 cars a year? Please!

To make an efficient vehicle it has to be light. It's a law of thermodynamics. Does a single north American vehicle comply with this?

I could go on with this for hours. I could write a book on this...

For those like me crazy about EVs. I'd recommend The EVcast podcast.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by yvanleterrible

In 1914, 30 years or so after the invention of electric cars, someone had the bright idea of putting PV cells on top of a vehicle...

Whoa, whoa! Photovoltaic cells? In 1914? Who's got links to that... I want to see!

PV cells are finally getting efficient and cheap enough to be a viable source of power for homes and vehicles. A home with a PV roof could provide power to the home, then use what's left at the end of the day to charge the car. Any other convenient surfaces could be made PV as well (in case you actually have a carport!).

I've been expecting PV car roofs for years... even if they were just used to charge the battery and accessories. But with the latest advances, including PV skins and paint coatings, the entire car body could soak up sun and drive on it.

[yvanleterrible]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Whoa, whoa! Photovoltaic cells? In 1914? Who's got links to that... I want to see!

PV cells are finally getting efficient and cheap enough to be a viable source of power for homes and vehicles. A home with a PV roof could provide power to the home, then use what's left at the end of the day to charge the car. Any other convenient surfaces could be made PV as well (in case you actually have a carport!).

I've been expecting PV car roofs for years... even if they were just used to charge the battery and accessories. But with the latest advances, including PV skins and paint coatings, the entire car body could soak up sun and drive on it.

I took that from a book I have. PVs have been invented in the 1800s. So have been EVs. EVs have been invented before ICEs.
Henry Ford wanted to make his cars electric but one of his friends had an oil field . You can guess the rest. From then on EVs were put to rest and each attempt to revive them has been thwarted voluntarily by oil producers. Yay...

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

I'd take one of these.



Mainly because the Carver/Venture One is being held up indefinitely...

Wow! A car with a motorcycle on the rear end! I'm sure it gets better mileage than my old El Camino, which was basically a car with a truck stuck up its rear.

Performance Specifications from the website:
* 0 – 60 mph : 7.8 seconds
* Max Speed: 75+ mph
* Range: 100+ miles

* List Price: $35,000.00

Not bad!

[yvanleterrible]

Zap Cars has an unreliable history.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by yvanleterrible

Zap Cars has an unreliable history.

Pity.

The Alias looks so pretty.

Then again, so does my Nook.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

Wow! A car with a motorcycle on the rear end! I'm sure it gets better mileage than my old El Camino, which was basically a car with a truck stuck up its rear.

Performance Specifications from the website:
* 0 – 60 mph : 7.8 seconds
* Max Speed: 75+ mph
* Range: 100+ miles

* List Price: $35,000.00

Not bad!

I rather like this one:

It’s certainly an odd beast, but Piaggio’s “MP3 Hybrid” scooter / trike / whatsit has itself a ship window and a vague pricetag. Piaggio hopes to start selling the vehicle in the US by Q1 2010, with a price ranging around $8,000 or $9,000. The plug-in hybrid can run off of a standard charge for 40 miles, and has a gas-powered generator (like the Volt) for extra power, with a promised 141 mpg overall. It’s packed in with some regenerative breaking, a high-performance battery-boosted mode to make one pretty hot scooter — if you can get over those looks and the extra wheel.

That extra wheel puts it in the car driver's license category, instead of the motor cycle driver's license category, over here...

[Delta Tango]

Couple of years ago I did some math and it confirmed my expectations...
To get enough power from PVs you'd need a large car (something like a caravan) completely covered with cells (side panels don't help much so front and back windshields would also need to be covered by PVs when parked).
The car would have to be stripped down of all stuff you take for granted, like power steering, electric windows, air conditioning and even heating.

In moderate climate region you'd get about 30-50 km for entire day of sun bathing.
In urban surrounding you can't get that. The buildings block too much of light.

So, unless better PVs are developed (current consumer cells are about 15-18% efficient) we won't see fully solar powered cars.
Electric motors don't have much room for further development (they are approx 85-95% efficient), but PV could theoretically even triple their output.

Of course if you do have a parking lot that is in the sun, you might lower your consumptions of the from-the-grid power, but I'm not sure you'd be able to go solely on solar.

However, building a tiny (two seat max) car with nothing but wheels, batteries and a solar panel roof might get you going.

[yvanleterrible]

Most everyone is a novice to the EV world, so I'll give a brief glossary up front.

EV: Electric Vehicle.
PV: Photovoltaic. A cell that transforms sunlight to electricity, not to be confused with a solar collector that heats liquids for energy.
ICE: Internal Combustion Engine.



Current PVs are in the 12% efficiency right now. The best at about 16% at twice the price. Many PVs from China barely get 10%. The best that's been attained in laboratory so far is around 35% but they're heavy and extraordinairely ovepriced.

I don't think that PVs on an EV is achievable for some time unless there's a scientific break. The best alternative is to cover parking grounds with PV covered roofs. PV covered parking spaces have other benefits. They shade the cars from the sun so it is not as hot when you get in to it then less power to cool it down. Less sunshine on a car will also lengthen the life of plastic and composite parts. We all know a car in a garage lasts longer. Roofs will also help with snow and freezing rain management. Extra power can be harnassed for other use.

An electric motor has an average of 90% efficiency. An ICE, 30%.
BTW A light car does not need a powersteering.

The American type of car is passé and not sustainable, period. Until the public get's it in its thick selfish head, nothing of serious meaning can be obtained.
VEHICLES ARE TOO BIG, TOO FAST, TOO HEAVY AND TOO MANY FOR SUSTAINED LIFE...




BTW there are statistics about fuel use that I can't find right now. Those statistics are not what one would think to be right but I'll give a rough estimate.
The moving of people in cars, buses and trains makes up for 25% of petroleum uses. Transport of goods by trucking and train about 30% but going up. Shipping overseas takes a LOT of petroleum and so do airplanes. The rest is for electrical energy production, industry and mining.

Why do I bring this in such an incomplete form of statistic? To say that moving people is not what we have to worry about the most but the one part we can personnally affect. What we have to worry about is moving materials on long distances. No definitive advances are possible for great ships, airplanes and mining equipment. They will always depend on petroleum as long as we use them. There's nothing we can do about that. But we can do something for the way we move about. That's why we have to pressure vehicle makers to at least allow us alternatives. EVs have existed long before the introduction of the internal combustion engine. We've been made to think they're not useful but it's not true. Vehicle manufacturers have made advancements in battery and components years ago and have never wished to go the electric way because the oil lobby is strong and compelling. But that's my paranoia. It's a fact that there's prejudice and wilful misinformation about the EV. I fight it every day up to the point that I rarely mention my passion for EVs anymore.


If I go back to the price of EVs... There goes my paranoia again.
There are fewer parts in an EV than in an ICE vehicle. Make your own jugment. A typical ICE car has from 5,000 to 12,000 parts. An EV has 2,000 to 4,000 parts....A hybrid car, 8,000 to 15,000?
LIthium Ion batteries are expensive... There's as much lithium on the planet as there is iron and it's as easy to mine...
Solar cells are expensive... PVs are made mostly of silica, it's the same as sand and glass, it's the most abundent material on earth...




There are cheaper alternatives than the BYD and the Nissan Leaf. The Think City for example, it's available in Europe and has been for ten years. The Think was developped by Ford in the US. I've driven one at the EVS 2000 symposium in Montréal. Loved it!
At just a little bigger size than a Smart car its a brilliant concept. Light, responsive, with an autonomy of 125km, its outer body is built of recycled plastics and the whole of the car is recyclable. It sells for around $20,000. If it were built on a higher scale it would be cheaper than a Yaris. But it does not fit in the traditionality of a typical ICE car so they won't build it. That's sad. And the same can be said of any vehicle that does not fit in the "typical" mold.

There's still too much to say so I'll stop right here...