Seriously thoughtful How do you plan to prove you are a citizen?

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by GlenBarrington

No,

No? O.K. Your choice.

YOU made an assertion that you are unable or unwilling to prove or even to support.

Unwilling. I have no need to prove anything.

It's not MY job to do your work for you.

'For me?' I'm not the one who wanted the proof.

We, as Americans, own a variety of automobiles that are capable of going 200 - 300 miles on a single tankfull of Gasoline. Why do you think we use so much Gasoline?

Too lazy to walk to the corner 7-Eleven?

Your ignorance of North American geography and culture is both broad and deep. And it shows, much to your discredit.

Yes, it really is a shame... But AS an American, I've been in EVERY state of the Union including Alaska and Hawaii, traveled through and experienced ALL of them on the back of a motorcycle, (as well as most of its protectorates and territories including Puerto Rico, Guam, the Philippines, Federated States of Micronesia, Northern Mariana Islands and Palau, etc., although a couple of these are now completely independent but still use US currency, ) (by the way, did you know that Guam used to have the LARGEST Sears store in the world, is is still the second largest consumer per population ratio of Spam in the world? I used to watch Guamanians purchase it by the pallet-load at Costco!) lived in seven of them, taught cross-cultural studies at university in two of them, and only left the US as an older adult to further my cross-cultural knowledge.

There is a slight possibility that I do posses some small degree of knowledge and understanding of American geography and culture, although I do admit to only a very limited knowledge (or care) of American politics. There certainly is still a lot more I could have learned about the US.

So, sorry, but if 'proof' is what you require, please do your own work.

[Edit: I confess... I've never been to the Marshall Islands. There isn't any good scuba diving there... ]


Stitchawl

[Gerli]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

I took that quiz... I got a 6 (and a seat on the district council!). Not bad for a Yank.

A 7 here, we can seat next to each other

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms

Here's my favourite cartoon on the subject of Arizona's racist law.

If I were a Christian, which I'm not, I would post this (which is not Matthew 25:35):

[dreams]

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

[Edit: I confess... I've never been to the Marshall Islands. There isn't any good scuba diving there... ]

Stitchawl

My ex father in-law was hired to do a project for the government at the Missile Defense Test Site on Kwajalein Atoll. I sooo wanted to go, but I wasn't given clearance to be on the atoll without a job, and he had already created a job for his wife and my brother-in-law's wife. The atoll is so tiny and isolated that my sis-in-law started to go crazy and couldn't stand having stuff checked and censored and finally left after 6 months.

My brother-in-law wasn't allowed to scuba there (must be something to do with national defense or something) and had to wait until he went to Hawaii.

what was this thread about again? Oh yeah.. "How do you plan to prove you are a citizen?"...
I'm Spanish / Native American (born in USA). I'll just continue to renew my passport.

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by dreams

My ex father in-law was hired to do a project for the government at the Missile Defense Test Site on Kwajalein Atoll. I sooo wanted to go, but I wasn't given clearance to be on the atoll without a job, and he had already created a job for his wife and my brother-in-law's wife. The atoll is so tiny and isolated that my sis-in-law started to go crazy and couldn't stand having stuff checked and censored and finally left after 6 months.

My brother-in-law wasn't allowed to scuba there (must be something to do with national defense or something) and had to wait until he went to Hawaii.

Might have been due to radiation levels in the water? The US did a lot of nuclear testing in that area right up until the early 60's. God only knows the size of the octopi there today!

Kwajalein is just about the largest coral atoll in the world, certainly the largest in the Marshalls, but it's mostly dead reef. Much prettier things to see under water east or west of there... especially west, on the western side of the Micronesian islands (especially the Northern Marianas) closer to the Mariana Trench! Nice fishies and crystal clear warm water!

what was this thread about again? Oh yeah.. "How do you plan to prove you are a citizen?"...
I'm Spanish / Native American (born in USA). I'll just continue to renew my passport.

You might think about getting one of the new 'passport cards' at the same time you renew your regular passport. Renewal only takes a week or so, but getting the new card takes more than a month right now, even though there is no backlog. Once/if (?) the new laws go into effect, there will be a massive crush of people applying for them, so should take even longer. Same size as a driver's license and not as pretty as the new passports. I think they will come in very handy soon... (foreshadow... foreshadow... )

Stitchawl

[PhishStyx]

Originally Posted by HarryT

A passport? Pretty much everyone has a passport, I'd guess. A passport actually explicitly states your citizenship, so it would be ideal.

In fact, in the US felony convicts often cannot get passports if I recall correctly.

[dreams]

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

Might have been due to radiation levels in the water? The US did a lot of nuclear testing in that area right up until the early 60's. God only knows the size of the octopi there today!

They had no problem being allowed to swim, just not allowed to go too far out or to scuba. You may be on to something.

Kwajalein is just about the largest coral atoll in the world, certainly the largest in the Marshalls, but it's mostly dead reef. Much prettier things to see under water east or west of there... especially west, on the western side of the Micronesian islands (especially the Northern Marianas) closer to the Mariana Trench! Nice fishies and crystal clear warm water!

The section they were on was easily crossed "from side to side and top to bottom and all around the edge" (according to my ex mother-in-law) in less than a day by walking or on their bikes. They did have a lot of trouble with the "sand" being scratchy. Not a lot of photos were allowed to be taken back home or mailed out. ** They worked on dredging out docking areas which I think was on Meck--very restrictive access to atoll / island whatever it is called. They were "hopped" (helicopter and plane) out to Kwajalein for time off each month.

You might think about getting one of the new 'passport cards' at the same time you renew your regular passport.

I've already thought about doing so.

Renewal only takes a week or so, but getting the new card takes more than a month right now, even though there is no backlog. Once/if (?) the new laws go into effect, there will be a massive crush of people applying for them, so should take even longer. Same size as a driver's license and not as pretty as the new passports. I think they will come in very handy soon... (foreshadow... foreshadow... )

Stitchawl

Thanks, Stitchaw, I have a feeling you're right.

[PhishStyx]

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

Please do NOT believe me. If it's important to you, please do your own research. We are dealing with 'statistics.' Not facts.

Stitchawl

I always love when people insist on putting out random things as though they're facts then refuse to back them up because they can't.

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by PhishStyx

In fact, in the US felony convicts often cannot get passports if I recall correctly.

According to http://www.ehow.com/about_4842726_un...uirements.html which may or may not be accurate;
"Federal arrest warrants, criminal court orders or conditions of probation may make you ineligible to apply for and receive a U.S. passport, though it is up to law enforcement agencies to deny your request. Prior criminal records or arrests will not necessarily make you ineligible. Perhaps the operative word here is 'necessarily.' Maybe there is some wiggle room. Maybe a violent criminal can't but a white-collar criminal is OK? Big thief or little thief?

According to the U.S. Department of State (which probably IS accurate,)
if one is in arrears of child support payments in excess of $2,500, you are ineligible to receive a U.S. passport. You can run but you just can't hide.

But... just because one has a U.S. passport, it doesn't make them a citizen! Non-citizens can get U.S. passports!
Again, according to the U.S. State Department; "Not all U.S. nationals are U.S. citizens; all U.S. citizens are U.S. nationals. The U.S. passport issued to non-citizen nationals contains the endorsement code 9 which states: "THE BEARER IS A UNITED STATES NATIONAL AND NOT A UNITED STATES CITIZEN."

Humph! I learn something new every day!

Stitchawl

[Logseman]

In Spain, we carry ID cards for everything requiring identification. The only people who fake ID cards are kids who want to enter in 18+ parties when they're younger...

However, ID cards make things easier for government. They can spot us from anywhere with those. They can establish surveillance on our dealings with everybody. And importantly enough: noone asked for them. It's not exactly coincident that we Spaniards started to forcibly sport them during the Francoist dictatorship, and that the "democratic" governments from later on have not even imagined the possibility to cancel them. Since they make it easier to watch us and tax us, they're incredibly handy for a government. ID cards are indeed simply about controlling peiople: noone cared about immigrants exploiting the Spanish social security system in the 50's, since it was almost non-existant and people emigrated from the country. And even today, noone legally can complain since the constitution establishes that everyone in Spain has the "right" to health care "free of charge" (tax-paid), and to mandatory education up to the 16th year of life. Yet we still are forced to pack those cards, which damage the honor of us, the people, since our word is no longer believed, but the card's.

That being Spain, the idea of dismantling the rather corrupt and inefficient public health care and education systems never crossed anyone's mind, but that's another topic...

[Stitchawl]

As an ex-pat for the past 20+ years, I've always had to carry either a passport, an alien registration card, or a certified photocopy of my passport at all times. These have been required when I want to rent a car, check into a hotel, travel by train or long distance bus (police checks mid-way) use my credit cards, sign up for telephone and cable TV service, etc. As an American, the idea of always having some sort of ID being 'required' was as alien as the countries I live in, but in every country (that I live in) the locals are all required to carry ID too, usually nationally issued. Nobody seems to mind...

As for being 'spotted' or tracked by anyone... have you ever noticed just how many cameras we pass in front of every day? Driving down the road, walking past a bank, entering a train or bus station, going into a convenience store, parking your car in a 'public' parking facility, entering an office building, going into a school, police cars with cameras mounted on the dash... the list is endless. For that matter, satellites that can read car number plates from orbit can certainly see faces. I think if a government wanted to find me, it wouldn't take them very long even if I didn't have my ID card. So why can't the pizza delivery guy find me????

Stitchawl

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Logseman

In Spain, we carry ID cards for everything requiring identification. The only people who fake ID cards are kids who want to enter in 18+ parties when they're younger...

The majority of EU countries require people to carry ID cards. The UK is very much the "odd man out" in not requiring it at present.

[McKGrif]

I'm not understanding something. Are you questioning the propriety of the law, or simply trying to find the best way to satisfy it?

The very idea of people needing to prove their citizenship is ridiculous. The answer to your question is that 'acceptable forms of ID' will be arbitrarily decided by the Arizona State Government, so you don't need to concern yourself with such considerations.

What you should concern yourself with, is the idea that you are being made accountable to the government, as opposed to the government being accountable to you.

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by McKGrif

What you should concern yourself with, is the idea that you are being made accountable to the government, as opposed to the government being accountable to you.

"Being made?" [as in 'present tense?'] I refuse to believe that I am the only person to have noticed that we HAVE BEEN MADE for quite some time now...

Not being a historian, I'd guess it began with the first military draft in the 1800's. It certainly hasn't let up since then, but has been increasing ever since! The last time a government (in power for more than a few months) was accountable to the people, everyone was wearing togas!

Many years ago in boot camp I swore an oath to protect my country and its constitution. I still believe in that oath. The only difference is, back then I was unaware of just what that meant. Today I am under no such false pretenses. It's still my country regardless of where I live. But it isn't the same country our founding fathers envisioned, nor is it the same country for which Emma Lazarus penned her "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..."

Everything changes. That's neither good nor bad. It's change.

Stitchawl

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by McKGrif

The very idea of people needing to prove their citizenship is ridiculous.

No, it's not. In a reality of limited resources, people taking advantage of services that weren't intended for them (and that they did not contribute to with taxes), and falsifying identities in order to defraud governments and individuals, there is every good reason to have an ID proving citizenship.

And let's be clear: The U.S. government is still accountable to its people. The problem is, the people refuse to do their duty to hold them accountable. It's called participating in government... which doesn't mean voting every 4 years for a President, and ignoring everything that happens in-between. The majority of the American public have abdicated their responsibility to be part of the American system, in their daily search for the Big Mac, and that is what has given us a dysfunctional government.