Seriously thoughtful How do you plan to prove you are a citizen?

[Robert Minneman]

Most states do not allow illegal immigrants to get a drivers license. Arizona is one of those states, so if you have a drivers license you can easily identify yourself as a citizen.

This law is a RENDUNDANT law, namely it's law that tells the state of Arizona, "Yes, we will enforce current FEDERAL immigration policy."

Speaking with friends from Arizona, they're quite happy with this law. With 500,000+ illegal immigrants using state healthcare, schooling, and even welfare dollars, they're hurting.

The state of Arizona has been begging the Federeal government for YEARS to enforce immigration, crack down on the flood of illegals, and get this problem under control.

Why is it a bad thing for the state to take the initiative and finally say, "Fine, when we pull over someone who is speeding, and they can't provide a drivers license and they barely speak english, and they're acting really nervous, let's go ahead and ask them to provide a green card (which if they're a LEGAL immigrant on a work visa, they're required BY FEDERAL LAW to carry anyway).

The ONLY people who have ANYTHING to fear from this law are the illegal immigrants and those companies knowingly employing illegals. Illegal immigrants, BEGING ILLEGAL, they have limited "rights" when it comes to the law in the country anyway so they CERTAINLY should not have ANY influence on what laws our LEGAL citizens pass. The companies that knowingly employing those people are afraid of losing a workforce they can easily exploit.

This law PROTECTS immigrants by helping ensure LEGAL immigrants have available to them jobs where they can report abuses, and reduces the prospect of employers with 'questionable intent' from having such an extensive exploitable workforce.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by ShortNCuddlyAm

Yes - I was shocked to discover that asking someone to "step outside" was not the response you could expect if you knocked their pint over

(Disclaimer - this is taken from a 5 year old quiz on the Beeb: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/4099770.stm)

I haven't read the book. I got 8 right out of 14. Pretty pathetic or what?

[DawnFalcon]

If you're a legal immigrant? You're screwed.

It's common for processing times to make your papers technically out of date. It was not an immigration offence, however. This bill? Makes that an offence. And there is basically nothing you can do to speed the processing up.

Sigh.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

If you're a legal immigrant? You're screwed. ...

And not in the good way, right?

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

And not in the good way, right?

Screwed!

The Federal government has a quite pragmatic view of this, but in the (frankly common, the delays are nuts) situation your papers are out of date because of processing delays (but are still essentially valid) and you get stopped for any reason in AZ, you've now automatically committed an offence (which in turn can and will probably affect your immigration status...).

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

So, back to the card: It is up to the people to weigh in on not only whether the card is a good idea, but how it should be applied and used, and why. Do not depend on the politicians to do it for you, that is the biggest mistake this country can make (something demonstrated on a regular basis). Make the government listen to its people, or be prepared to swallow the consequences.

I don't want mandatory ID cards. Among the problems with them: at what age are they required? Are school-age children required to carry ID at all times--and if so, what's the penalty for losing those cards, because some kids will. Are infants required to have ID's?

Who will pay for these ID cards, what agency will spend its resources on collecting data & delivering cards, and how often would children's cards have to be re-issued?

I have a state ID card, not a driver's license, and it sometimes confuses people who check for ID. I've often heard of passports and military ID cards being refused as legal ID by cashiers who aren't familiar with them; yet another form of ID will cause years of annoyance and hassle in random situations.

The question of "who has the right to demand to see the ID, and in what circumstances" needs to be addressed *FIRST*, not as an afterthought of "of course we should have ID, and then figure out how it'll be used." The related issue of "what happens when your ID is lost or stolen?" is also important, as is "what penalties will exist for people who misuse their authority to demand ID?"

Right now, those are incidental questions, because paper ID is not mandatory. If it becomes a requirement for all citizens (of a city, state or nation) to carry ID, they become big issues, where the misapplication of laws can allow for discrimination and outright damage.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

I don't want mandatory ID cards...

So, if all those questions were properly answered, and everyone knew what the ID cards were and accepted them... would you be for ID cards?

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Screwed!

The Federal government has a quite pragmatic view of this, but in the (frankly common, the delays are nuts) situation your papers are out of date because of processing delays (but are still essentially valid) and you get stopped for any reason in AZ, you've now automatically committed an offence (which in turn can and will probably affect your immigration status...).

Ah! But ShortNCuddlyAm's test was for British immigrants!

[Robert Minneman]

By law as a driving citizen I am required to carry my drivers license whenever I am in my car.

As a matter of my credit card/bank account policies when I present a credit card or write a check to make a purchase I am expected to be asked for a photo ID/drivers license to prove my identity.

I don't get the reticence to this law. The fact is if there's a bully policeman he can pull your butt over and harass you regardless of your immigration status, this law doesn't give Arizona officers any more of an excuse to do that than they already have.

Just a bunch of liberal smoke screening designed to distract us from their pathetic mismanagement of our economy.

[GlenBarrington]

Originally Posted by Stitch awl

Please do NOT believe me. If it's important to you, please do your own research. We are dealing with 'statistics.' Not facts.

Stitch awl

No, YOU made an assertion that you are unable or unwilling to prove or even to support. It's not MY job to do your work for you. Christ! If you want to bash Americans and America at least use some sort of semi coherent argument!

This is an assertion that is ridiculous and illogical on the face of it. You claim few Americans have ever been more than 200 miles from their home, when We, as Americans, own a variety of automobiles that are capable of going 200 - 300 miles on a single tankfull of Gasoline. Why do you think we use so much Gasoline?

Your ignorance of North American geography and culture is both broad and deep. And it shows, much to your discredit.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by Robert Minneman

By law as a driving citizen I am required to carry my drivers license whenever I am in my car.

As a matter of my credit card/bank account policies when I present a credit card or write a check to make a purchase I am expected to be asked for a photo ID/drivers license to prove my identity.

I don't get the reticence to this law. The fact is if there's a bully policeman he can pull your butt over and harass you regardless of your immigration status, this law doesn't give Arizona officers any more of an excuse to do that than they already have.

Just a bunch of liberal smoke screening designed to distract us from their pathetic mismanagement of our economy.

There ought to be a corollary to Godwin's law to include the first use of the term "liberal" in a derogatory manner.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

There ought to be a corollary to Godwin's law to include the first use of the term "liberal" in a derogatory manner.

And another that includes "Big Brother"...

But I'm with Robert. I see resistance to this idea as pure paranoia at work, with no reasonable basis for the suggested assumption that the U.S. government will start rounding everyone up and tasering them (and worse) at random, just because they can no longer be confused with someone else...

[Dusty Bottoms]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

There ought to be a corollary to Godwin's law to include the first use of the term "liberal" in a derogatory manner.

I propose the name 'Sharpe's Law', also because that Sharpe bloke on telly was kind of cool too

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms

I propose the name 'Sharpe's Law', also because that Sharpe bloke on telly was kind of cool too

Sounds good to me. Here it is:

Sharpe's Law
As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of someone using the word "liberal" as an insult approaches one.

[Dusty Bottoms]

Here's my favourite cartoon on the subject of Arizona's racist law.