A Question on ethics

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by slayda

Another ethical, not legal, question.

Where is the difference between a paper book library lending books and a hypothetical ebook library lending books? With the former, you borrow the book, read it & return it. With my hypothetical ebook library, you download an electronic version, read it & erase it.

I admit that there is no practical way to ensure that you erase the book but most books I buy are of the "read once" variety. So if it were practical to ensure erasure after reading, what would the ethical difference be between the two types of library?

I believe there are now libraries which use a DRM with an expiration date to do exactly this.

[astra]

Originally Posted by HarryT

What I'm struggling with is the idea which seems to be being expressed that, having paid for a book in one format once, you're entitled to free copies, for life, in any other format that you wish .

All my very favourite books - the ones I read and re-read - I've probably bought multiple times; sometimes because I've initially bought a paperback and wanted a nice hardback, sometimes because I've simply worn out the original. I don't consider that buying a book in one format gives me some "God-given right" to "eternal use" of that book in all conceivable formats. If I buy a hardback and want a paperback, I have to buy a paperback (or vice versa). I honestly don't see that an eBook is any different.

That's why I always buy only hardback editions. They do not wear down. They are life time copies of the books. Even my children may inherit them. When I buy a book I consider it as a life time investment.

The day when there will be some sort of
universal ebook format
without DRM with
prices similar to paperback editions,
I will stop buying paper books - hardback editions and will resort to ebooks only. Untill then I will keep on buying expensive hardback editions and obtain ebook versions by other means.

[mogui]

Originally Posted by HarryT

What I'm struggling with is the idea which seems to be being expressed that, having paid for a book in one format once, you're entitled to free copies, for life, in any other format that you wish .

All my very favourite books - the ones I read and re-read - I've probably bought multiple times; sometimes because I've initially bought a paperback and wanted a nice hardback, sometimes because I've simply worn out the original. I don't consider that buying a book in one format gives me some "God-given right" to "eternal use" of that book in all conceivable formats. If I buy a hardback and want a paperback, I have to buy a paperback (or vice versa). I honestly don't see that an eBook is any different.

Perhaps it is just a cultural difference. For all I know, people in the US routinely photocopy their paper books and read the photocopies, because their "fair use" law says they can. Here, we just accept that books wear and, and go and buy a new one if we want an additional copy, or we want the book in a different format.

Maybe the current business model of eBook retailers is flawed. When I borrow a book from a public library, I understand it is borrowed and that I must return it. Some libraries now loan eBooks that expire after a certain period of time. Everyone can accept this.

In the west you have public libraries that loan books for "free", subsidized by taxes. In other countries, a borrower must pay a fee to borrow a book. Everyone concerned can accept this.

Maybe eBook retailers could operate like "for fee" libraries. You pay a fee, download a book, read it or not, and after a period of time it becomes unusable. This book would be DRMed. Thus, we would deviate from the notion that we are buying something. Under this business model, readers would have their needs fulfilled, and publishers, retailers and authors could make money.

If the lending fee was sufficiently small, could everyone accept this? Hmmm?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by mogui

Maybe eBook retailers could operate like "for fee" libraries. You pay a fee, download a book, read it or not, and after a period of time it becomes unusable. This book would be DRMed. Thus, we would deviate from the notion that we are buying something. Under this business model, readers would have their needs fulfilled, and publishers, retailers and authors could make money.

If the lending fee was sufficiently small, could everyone accept this? Hmmm?

This was the way that DRM worked on the original Sony Librie in Japan. It was, by all accounts, a complete commercial disaster. People want content to keep.

Hasn't there been an attempt to introduce "self destructing" DVDs in the US? I believe they've not been too successful, either.

[mogui]

The operative qualification here is the "sufficiently small" fee. Do you know what Sony was charging? Theoretically anyone can open a "for fee" lending library, and they can charge any fee they wish. Years ago there were software libraries on the web that charged a rental fee for which you could download a copy. This was clearly a way to cheat the publisher. But now we have the model of public libraries allowing eBook downloads. Our taxes pay the fee, which is certainly "sufficiently small" enough that we will use the service. There is a precedent here to rent eBooks for a very small fee. All of this would operate outside of the current distribution channels.

[jasonkchapman]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Hasn't there been an attempt to introduce "self destructing" DVDs in the US? I believe they've not been too successful, either.

DivX. It was supposed to revolutionize video rentals. It was quite deservedly killed by mobs running away from it, but they forgot to put a stake in its heart. New plans for self-destructing DVDs keep popping up occasionally.

[monkeywrench]

Originally Posted by HarryT

There seems to be a certain contradiction here.

1. It's OK to download a copy of a book from the internet if you have a paper copy.

Another contradiction that I haven't seen here yet. Let me preface this by saying that I am just throwing this out here because its basically the same thing thats been mentioned here already only in reverse. I myself believe what I am about to say is pretty ridiculous but I thought it needed to be brought up and might change the way that some people think about their entitlement to a book in electronic form because they own a paper copy.

So lets say I go onto Sony Connect and buy an ebook and then I decide that I want a paper copy of that book. Wouldn't it be ethically alright for me to go down to the local bookstore and pick up the same title in paper format and walk right out the front door without paying for it?

Somehow I don't think this would fly.

Now I know that a lot of people are going to say this is not the same because the paper book is a physical thing and there is a cost involved for the materials used to make the book. With this being said think of it this way.

Now days when we go to the store and buy software we aren't actually buying it. We are licensing the use of the software under the terms and conditions of the end user license agreement. With this in mind it leads me to believe that I am not actually paying for the discs, documentation, and packaging. I am merely paying a fee to use the software that is on the discs.

If books and music were thought of in this same way we would just be licensing the use of or the ability to read/listen to the book or music that was on/in the physical medium. And if this were the case using the logic of "If I own the paper copy then I can legally/ethically download an electronic copy" then my idea above wouldn't seem so far fetched.

Now for a solution to this problem. When I buy a book from Cisco Press it almost always includes a CD with the book in PDF format. It would be really nice if when we bought a book, be it paper back or hard cover, that they included a link for us to legally download an electronic copy? I would, as someone else mentioned earlier, even be willing to pay an extra amount (maybe a dollar or two) to offset the cost of the conversion, bandwidth, server hardware, etc. So that I didn't have to buy two copies of the book at cover price.

I think there are a lot of creative things that these companies could do to create a better user experience for consumers. These are the things that they need to start doing to give people a reason to buy their products legally rather than fighting against consumers with the attitude that if given the opportunity we will do our best to steal from them.

[JSWolf]

Remember, if you purchase the hardback of a book and then want the paperback, you have to pay for the paperback.

What I would love to see is a coupon for the ebook whereby you purchase the hardcover and get the ebook at a significantly reduced price like $2.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Remember, if you purchase the hardback of a book and then want the paperback, you have to pay for the paperback.

What I would love to see is a coupon for the ebook whereby you purchase the hardcover and get the ebook at a significantly reduced price like $2.

Why would you not expect them to do likewise for paperbacks, Jon? That's one of my main points in this debate - everyone seems to expect to have to pay full price for a paperback, if they've bought the hardware, and yet there are those who appear to expect to get the eBook for "free". That just seems completely irrational to me.

[andyafro]

sad sad sad

[andyafro]

hahahahah you people are so full of shit sometimes

i read this forum everyday and all you get is people going on about whats legal and illegal copyright material and what's ethical & unethical on the main pages but mention or post a book that no-one has and the same people that are cursing and saying you can't do that are the same people flooding my email with requests for it.

i do buy books nearly everyday i read 3 / 4 books a week i buy from connect and download the free content whereever i can find it but if its not available to buy or it's not in ebook format i'm gonna find it one way or another because i love to read i do not share unless someone ask me for a book they cannot get no matter where they look.
i think you lot delude yourself sometimes i bet most of you have something you shouldnt have on your reader.
sorry but im getting one messege on here and another in the private ones and from the same people

[HarryT]

Please express your opinions politely, Andy. "full of shit" is not an acceptable expression on MobileRead - we conduct civilized discussions here.

You may indeed think that it is "sad" to wish to uphold the law; that's your right. Please accept, however, that some of us do not regard it as ethically acceptable to download illegally copied books.

Thank you,

[andyafro]

HARRY T
you are the 3rd person i have had to apoligise to for my comments last night, my only defence is that i am 4 days into a stop smoking effort a 15 year habit and im hurting real bad now
so if i offended anyone i am very sorry but it felt good for a second to stress abit

i read abook yesterday and didnt understand any of it thats how bad i feel i still read it though because it kept my mind of things but i was climbing the wall so bad none of it made sense to me

once again sorry to all i may of offended

[HarryT]

No problem. Thanks for being good enough to apologise.

[slayda]

Originally Posted by monkeywrench

It would be really nice if when we bought a book, be it paper back or hard cover, that they included a link for us to legally download an electronic copy?

Baen does, sometimes, include a CD, not only of the hardback book you buy - in many formats, but also many of their other books.