Seriously thoughtful Science Literacy in the U.S.A.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

Will it take another Sputnik to shake the U.S. out of its current complacency?

I'm not sure even that could work. Look at what has happened with the steel industry, the car industry, .... even in the computer industry India is taking over much we once clearly led....about our only export is war.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

who knows? this new non space position is extremely disturbing. I bet JFK is rolling in his grave!

You know actually I think if it had not been the space program, he'd have found something else. He was that kind of man...

[Laz116]

Who cares about space, when it is earth we should be worrying about.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Laz116

Who cares about space, when it is earth we should be worrying about.

Agreed the Earth is our mother, but people said the same thing about the space program and look at all the advances it brought us -- including the computer you are typing on when you post that message.

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by kennyc

You know actually I think if it had not been the space program, he'd have found something else. He was that kind of man...

it was necessary then, and I can't believe we are abandoning it now

Originally Posted by Laz116

Who cares about space, when it is earth we should be worrying about.

space needs to be looked at as earth's supply chain. there are many things there that we need and can quit raping the earth for those supplies

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

it was necessary then, and I can't believe we are abandoning it now

space needs to be looked at as earth's supply chain. there are many things there that we need and can quit raping the earth for those supplies

Well at least some part of the Orion program has been saved....at least that is what they are saying here -- Martin Marietta has a huge plant here...

I saw the headline where Obama is saying he still wants us to go to Mars "in his lifetime"

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

space needs to be looked at as earth's supply chain. there are many things there that we need and can quit raping the earth for those supplies

Really... and which of those things isn't just scifi a long way from current day technology.

I'm not against exploring the universe at all. I just don't get the importance of sending people to the moon, when a mother can't afford to feed her child (to paraphrase Prince's "Sign of the time").

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by Laz116

Really... and which of those things isn't just scifi a long way from current day technology.

I'm not against exploring the universe at all. I just don't get the importance of sending people to the moon, when a mother can't afford to feed her child (to paraphrase Prince's "Sign of the time").

wow, I'm amazed. this is a mindset I simply cannot debate with. I need to walk away from it

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

wow, I'm amazed. this is a mindset I simply cannot debate with. I need to walk away from it

I don't know what to say? (I really don't get why my mindset is so weird that you can't relate).

Is it so difficult to accept that a symbol does not make the content? Space travel dominance does not mean that USA is the best nation in the world. Loss of space travel dominance doesn't mean a fall from grace.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by Laz116

Who cares about space, when it is earth we should be worrying about.

Money is not spent in space. It's spent here on earth providing jobs, creating new industries, and enriching our understanding of ourselves and our origins. It's from the study of other worlds that we better understand the operations of our own world and threats to humanity's survival. From our study of Venus, we learn of the dangers of what a runaway greenhouse effect can mean to biological lifeforms. From observations of Jupiter we learn the dangers that can happen at any time if we don't plan and prepare ahead of time against being struck by large astronomical objects such as asteroids and comets. And time would fail me if I began to list all of the spin-offs from the space program that enrich our everyday lives. Think for a moment just how much more accurate are our maps and our weather predictions since the advent of satellite technology? Think how GPS systems provide us with the ability to never again be lost anywhere on planet earth. In defense also of "pure" as opposed to "applied" science, such technologies would be impossible without an understanding of General Relativity, which is necessary to coordinate these satellites with earth bases due to the space/time differential. And how much have observations and considerations of deep-space mysteries led to discoveries in physics that affect our every day lives? People criticize the need for large particle colliders that replicate the conditions of the early cosmos, but without an understanding of how quantum mechanics works, inventions such as cell phones would have been impossible.

Science in general, and space science in particular, has enriched all our lives.

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

Money is not spent in space. It's spent here on earth providing jobs, creating new industries, and enriching our understanding of ourselves and our origins. It's from the study of other worlds that we better understand the operations of our own world and threats to humanity's survival. From our study of Venus, we learn of the dangers of what a runaway greenhouse effect can mean to biological lifeforms. From observations of Jupiter we learn the dangers that can happen at any time if we don't plan and prepare ahead of time against being struck by large astronomical objects such as asteroids and comets. And time would fail me if I began to list all of the spin-offs from the space program that enrich our everyday lives. Think for a moment just how much more accurate are our maps and our weather predictions since the advent of satellite technology? Think how GPS systems provide us with the ability to never again be lost anywhere on planet earth. In defense also of "pure" as opposed to "applied" science, such technologies would be impossible without an understanding of General Relativity, which is necessary to coordinate these satellites with earth bases due to the space/time differential. And how much have observations and considerations of deep-space mysteries led to discoveries in physics that affect our every day lives? People criticize the need for large particle colliders that replicate the conditions of the early cosmos, but without an understanding of how quantum mechanics works, inventions such as cell phones would have been impossible.

Science in general, and space science in particular has enriched all our lives.

I don't disagree at all. But the further gains of space exploration vs. the cost just seems disproportionate to me, Sure there is a loss of jobs, but the expenses tied to those jobs far outweigh the benefits of the results as I see it. I may be wrong, but observations of space will still be done, the use of satellites etc. will still be carried out.

What we are talking about is the benefit of physically exploring deeper space than we have before. I am not sure the benefits measure up to the cost.

I'm not saying it's not interesting or it shouldn't be done. I'm just saying that with a 1000 billion $ deficit or more you need to focus on what's right in front of you.

[93terp]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

I'd call the country dysfunctional, myself. And I'd consider lack of basic scientific knowledge (and that resultant impact on practical knowledge) to be a major part of the reason.

Couldn't have said it better myself and couldn't agree with you more.

[93terp]

Originally Posted by dsvick

There could be a charter school in Cleveland right now telling the kids all about evolution while a 20 minutes drive away there is a small rural school being told all about intelligent design, and evolution is mentioned as an also ran.

And like how the Texas Board of Education has now made Thomas Jefferson an also ran in their social studies curriculum.

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/03/12/...its-textbooks/

Your example and mine highlight the major problem with allowing political/religious ideology to dictate what the "facts" are.

[dsvick]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

Money is not spent in space. It's spent ...

Science in general, and space science in particular, has enriched all our lives.

I could not have said it half so well!!

[dsvick]

Originally Posted by Laz116

Space travel dominance does not mean that USA is the best nation in the world. Loss of space travel dominance doesn't mean a fall from grace.

It is not about dominance, or even a competition any longer. Ok, wait, it is but not nearly as much as it was in the 60's. Now it more about the exploration itself about finding out the things we don't know, and testing the things we do. If we all had the attitude that there were better things to do at home then nothing would ever get done that wasn't at home. I'm sure there were people in Spain that would have said the money for Columbus's voyage could better have been spent at home.

Originally Posted by Laz116

I don't disagree at all. But the further gains of space exploration vs. the cost just seems disproportionate to me, Sure there is a loss of jobs, but the expenses tied to those jobs far outweigh the benefits of the results as I see it. I may be wrong, but observations of space will still be done, the use of satellites etc. will still be carried out.

What we are talking about is the benefit of physically exploring deeper space than we have before. I am not sure the benefits measure up to the cost.

I'm not saying it's not interesting or it shouldn't be done. I'm just saying that with a 1000 billion $ deficit or more you need to focus on what's right in front of you.

The problem is that you can't discount the gains when you don't even know what they will be. I'm not saying that the gains will pay off immediately either, some of the discoveries from the early space program have taken years to reach their full potential, but over time there is every chance that the cost of them will be repaid tenfold.

Also, like Bill said so well, it is not solely about the exploration itself, it is about the research and the effort in getting there even more than being there. What if in planning and researching a potential base on mars some scientists discovers a safe, inexpensive power generator based on some process we never even considered prior to that? Tell me that that would not go a long way to solving things right in front of us? Or a way to produce easily grown, highly nutritious, perfectly safe food?

I'm not saying any of those things will happen but we'll never know if don't go looking.