Seriously thoughtful Science Literacy in the U.S.A.

[dsvick]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Given that scenario then no, but what if those leaders don't know basic science, history, literature.

Originally Posted by ardeegee

There may be a difference in opinion around the country, but there are the same facts everywhere.

The problem here is that, on these two subjects, there is a difference of opinion over what is and is not a fact. It isn't so much that they don't know the basics of science, history, and literature, it is that they can't agree on them. And if they can't agree on them then how can anyone expect the country to agree on and implement a system to ensure that everyone knows the facts. Hell, come over to my house and ask the 4 of us these 2 questions, you'll get at least 3, possibly 4, different answers.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by cmdahler

... And even with all bills paid, in the end, who really honestly gives a flying rat's behind how many people understand evolution or cosmology?

I personally do. At least the basics of how the world works. If the majority of people are unable or unwilling to learn/grasp the basics, I'd worry (for my life) at what else they don't (or are unwilling) to learn.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by dsvick

The problem here is that, on these two subjects, there is a difference of opinion over what is and is not a fact. It isn't so much that they don't know the basics of science, history, and literature, it is that they can't agree on them. And if they can't agree on them then how can anyone expect the country to agree on and implement a system to ensure that everyone knows the facts. Hell, come over to my house and ask the 4 of us these 2 questions, you'll get at least 3, possibly 4, different answers.

There shouldn't be conflicting facts... ever. Evidence of conflicting facts (and the confusion of facts with opinions) would be clear evidence that the educational system isn't doing its job. And if we can't even get our facts straight, how can we as a society agree on sensible courses of action to solve a problem? In fact, we don't... and we find ourselves spending our time arguing about "facts" and "details" while nothing actually gets done. This seems to be the state the U.S. is in at present, which seems to me to be more of a reason to correct the problems in the educational system, and make sure everyone is operating from the same facts.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by cmdahler

I have a degree in physics, but the older I get, the less I care about things like evolution and cosmology. These branches of human learning have nothing to do with bettering society or improving anyone's life, so I rather suspect that the ones decrying the sad state of these useless fields of learning are mainly the ones who benefit from them: if enough people don't care, then precious funding to keep a lot of pointless archeology projects might get pulled, and a lot of archeologists might have to actually go out and get a real job. Perish the thought. Knowledge for knowledge's sake is a laudable goal, but only when all the other serious needs of society are taken care of.

Science education is about teaching people to THINK, and that's perhaps the most important thing you can teach a child to do. That's why there are so many different jobs open to people who do have a science degree. It's not the subject matter of the degree that matters; it's the fact that getting to degree has (hopefully!) taught you the skill of critical thinking, and that's a skill that will repay you for the rest of your life.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by dsvick

The problem here is that, on these two subjects, there is a difference of opinion over what is and is not a fact. It isn't so much that they don't know the basics of science, history, and literature, it is that they can't agree on them.

I'm sorry, but people who do not "believe in" basic, well established facts of science do NOT know the basics of science, history, and literature.

[dsvick]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

There shouldn't be conflicting facts... ever. Evidence of conflicting facts (and the confusion of facts with opinions) would be clear evidence that the educational system isn't doing its job. And if we can't even get our facts straight, how can we as a society agree on sensible courses of action to solve a problem? In fact, we don't... and we find ourselves spending our time arguing about "facts" and "details" while nothing actually gets done. This seems to be the state the U.S. is in at present, which seems to me to be more of a reason to correct the problems in the educational system, and make sure everyone is operating from the same facts.

I agree 100%!! This is why we keep having endless lawsuits brought in the courts over what should or shouldn't be taught in our schools. I'm all for teaching all the different theories and presenting everything from intelligent design, to the big bang, to we were all thrown up by the cosmic goat, but it is the educational system that is inconsistent and allows the differences to creep in. There could be a charter school in Cleveland right now telling the kids all about evolution while a 20 minutes drive away there is a small rural school being told all about intelligent design, and evolution is mentioned as an also ran.

[dsvick]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

I'm sorry, but people who do not "believe in" basic, well established facts of science do NOT know the basics of science, history, and literature.

I agree with this as well. I'm just saying that that is what the problem is and getting people to change their mind is not an easy thing. I believe that over time this can be corrected but it wont happen overnight.

The next generation should be a bit more accepting which means they'll teach in a more balanced (correct) way so that the generation that they are teaching will be even more accepting, and so on. It will take time but it will happen - I hope. We just need to overcome the close mindedness of some people who either don't see the value in it (parents and others), or are too stubborn to change the way they have been doing things (educators).

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by dsvick

I agree 100%!! This is why we keep having endless lawsuits brought in the courts over what should or shouldn't be taught in our schools. I'm all for teaching all the different theories and presenting everything from intelligent design, to the big bang, to we were all thrown up by the cosmic goat, but it is the educational system that is inconsistent and allows the differences to creep in. There could be a charter school in Cleveland right now telling the kids all about evolution while a 20 minutes drive away there is a small rural school being told all about intelligent design, and evolution is mentioned as an also ran.

So is your take-away from that that government and/or law should be more involved in what is taught/required of schools?

[Pablo]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Science education is about teaching people to THINK, and that's perhaps the most important thing you can teach a child to do. That's why there are so many different jobs open to people who do have a science degree. It's not the subject matter of the degree that matters; it's the fact that getting to degree has (hopefully!) taught you the skill of critical thinking, and that's a skill that will repay you for the rest of your life.

I couldn't agree more.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by dsvick

I'm all for teaching all the different theories and presenting everything from intelligent design, to the big bang, to we were all thrown up by the cosmic goat

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, ten thousand times NO!

"Teach the controversy" is an anti-scientific, anti-educational lie! (Not calling you, personally, a liar, just the proponents of antiscience like the disco 'tute.) There is NOTHING but HARM that can be done by presenting "all 'theories' as being equal," and is both an utter waste of time but also an utter misrepresentation of science.

Hey, shirts!

[Pablo]

Originally Posted by dsvick

I'm all for teaching all the different theories and presenting everything from intelligent design, to the big bang, to we were all thrown up by the cosmic goat

As long as you don't teach intelligent design and the cosmic goat tale in the science class. In a science class you should stick to science, otherwise you are transmitting the message that the big bang theory and intelligent design are rival theories on the same level, which they are not.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, ten thousand times NO!

Agreed: Unless there is scientific evidence to back it up, it is not science. It is, at best, theology, and is therefore best handled outside of schools.

[dsvick]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, ten thousand times NO!

Originally Posted by Pablo

As long as you don't teach intelligent design and the cosmic goat tale in the science class. In a science class you should stick to science, otherwise you are transmitting the message that the big bang theory and intelligent design are rival theories on the same level, which they are not.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Agreed [with ardeegee]: Unless there is scientific evidence to back it up, it is not science. It is, at best, theology, and is therefore best handled outside of schools.

OK, I give you guys (people) win. And actually I do agree with all of you and mistyped, sort of. Maybe taught is not the right word, but I do feel that kids should be made aware there are different thoughts on it out there, if for no other reason than so they can respond intelligently to them.

I like the shirts!! No spaghetti monster shirt though, but I did like the one with triceratops plowing the field!

[dsvick]

Originally Posted by kennyc

So is your take-away from that that government and/or law should be more involved in what is taught/required of schools?

That one is tougher. I don't think we need any more government intervention, bureaucracy, mandates, regulations, etc.... There is far to much of that as it is. Should there be standard or core set of knowledge which all kids are taught? Yes.

How we get there though I don't know, you can't just mandate it overnight, people react violently to that sort of thing

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by dsvick

That one is tougher. I don't think we need any more government intervention, bureaucracy, mandates, regulations, etc.... There is far to much of that as it is. Should there be standard or core set of knowledge which all kids are taught? Yes.

How we get there though I don't know, you can't just mandate it overnight, people react violently to that sort of thing

Simply put... you have the government do it. Hey... complain about government all you want, but that's literally what they're there for. If you're worried, you put an independent, non-politically-biased agency behind the process, and support them with dedicated government funds.