Why don't people use professional copy editors?

[Ea]

Edit: deleted. Nevermind...

[joycedb]

I believe experienced writers know that anyone can hang out a shingle and claim to be an editor. That doesn't necessarily mean they are any better than the person who's studied the craft of writing for years. While I don't claim knowledge of every rule of grammar or punctuation, I always have a grammar book handy if I'm in doubt.

Joyce DeBacco SERENDIPITY HOUSE

http://www.joycedebacco.com

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by joycedb

I believe experienced writers know that anyone can hang out a shingle and claim to be an editor. That doesn't necessarily mean they are any better than the person who's studied the craft of writing for years. While I don't claim knowledge of every rule of grammar or punctuation, I always have a grammar book handy if I'm in doubt.

But, with respect, Joyce, do you honestly believe it's possible to objectively edit your own work? I'm not talking about proof-reading, but "proper" copy editing - seeing where the story needs improving; what needs to go (or should be expanded); that kind of thing? It's a rare person indeed who can look at their own work and pass that kind of judgment on it. Proof-reading is an entirely different - and largely mechanical - process which most authors can do themselves.

[HistoryWes]

I agree with practically everyone here. Cost is THE big factor. I paid for one professional edit and while it was not a horror story like some I've heard, he didn't catch every error and most of the suggestions for revision were things that I didn't want to follow-- specifically he wanted to correct the grammar in the dialog of characters who were supposed to speak incorrect grammar.

The past couple of books I've finished, I've had fellow teachers (eight to ten of them) edit for me and even then errors get missed. And I don't know of anyone who can self edit with real success and that includes simple proofreading. You can read through a familiar line many times without noticing that through should have been though or thought.

I'd certainly be interested in any volunteer editing services. I have the first draft of my latest book done and after the second draft will be looking for help.

Also, for those "I won't stand an error" folks, ebooks add a whole 'nuther problem as errors can creep in to a perfect manuscript during format conversion.

[Ea]

Originally Posted by TC Beacham

I'm more surprised by the number of well-established traditionally published series that are filled with mistakes - maybe it's due to the rush to get out the next title.

As a reader, I don't mind a few mistakes if the story is good - as a writer, I'm more of a perfectionist.

Or the well-established authors who seem to be given free rein by the publishers, and whose books get longer and longer with less and less structure. I can only imagine it's the publisher who could be more attentive. Everyone, no matter what they dø or create, benefits from constructive feedback.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Ea

Or the well-established authors who seem to be given free rein by the publishers, and whose books get longer and longer with less and less structure. I can only imagine it's the publisher who could be more attentive. Everyone, no matter what they dø or create, benefits from constructive feedback.

Agreed. You only have to look at cases where "big name" authors have obtained the influence to be able to re-release "unedited" versions of their early books. I honestly can't think of a single instance of that where the shorter, edited, work is not a better, tighter, book.

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Agreed. You only have to look at cases where "big name" authors have obtained the influence to be able to re-release "unedited" versions of their early books. I honestly can't think of a single instance of that where the shorter, edited, work is not a better, tighter, book.

Stranger in a Strange Land

Insurrection (as reprinted in The Stars at War II)

I'm sure every is familiar with SiaSL, but the standalone version of Insurrection is missing a couple of chapters which left detectable hole in the flow of the novel.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by HarryT

That's why professional publishers are there, Steve; they bear the editing cost. You're a decent enough writer, from what I've seen of your work; have you never looked at having your books professionally published?

Simply put: Yes. The publishers wouldn't even respond to me. Or, they responded with "Whatever you've got, we're not accepting anything, so don't bother to send it."

[Ea]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

Stranger in a Strange Land

Insurrection (as reprinted in The Stars at War II)

I'm sure every is familiar with SiaSL, but the standalone version of Insurrection is missing a couple of chapters which left detectable hole in the flow of the novel.

Sorry but I'm not familiar with it (haven't read sci-fi in a very long time) so I'm not sure I get your point?

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by Ea

Sorry but I'm not familiar with it (haven't read sci-fi in a very long time) so I'm not sure I get your point?

Harry couldn't think of a book that was improved when republished in uncut form. I named a couple.

After Robert Heinlein died, his widow had Stranger in a Strange Land republished. Most of what was cut (so the novel could be published back in 1961) was put back in. I think the book is richer for it.

[Ea]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

Harry couldn't think of a book that was improved when republished in uncut form. I named a couple.

After Robert Heinlein died, his widow had Stranger in a Strange Land republished. Most of what was cut (so the novel could be published back in 1961) was put back in. I think the book is richer for it.

But why was it cut? Your mention that it was because it could not be published in 1961 suggest it might have political or sexual over- or under-tones that were publically unacceptable to a publisher. As for my own opinion that was not what I meant with regards to something that an editor could help with. An editors job is to support the author to bring forth what is best in them, sø I'm not really sure how this example would work. If Heinlein was cencored it would certainly be the work of the publisher or Heinlein himself.

[William Campbell]

Originally Posted by Michael J Hunt

an added advantage with a natural reader might be that when you have your own words reflected back to you it has a positive psychological effect;
MJ

Indeed. Another aspect to consider, Natural Reader does not add any exciting inflections to your dialog or narrative, as you the author might, or even a reader. It just plain delivers the words.

More than once, when something I thought was marvelous was read aloud to me by an emotionless computer, I came to the realization... That line is just plain dumb.

As a writer, I find its use helpful all the way around.

[William Campbell]

Originally Posted by HistoryWes

...specifically he wanted to correct the grammar in the dialog of characters who were supposed to speak incorrect grammar.

Argghh. That's a lousy editor. This isn't English class. Creative writing. Fiction at that. Run like hell.

Originally Posted by HistoryWes

You can read through a familiar line many times without noticing that through should have been though or thought.

Yep, like I was talking about earlier. Why I use Natural Reader to have the computer read it back. That stuff screams at you loud and clear. As well, the mysterious case of the missing word. I have had errors which I proofread dozens of time, my editor went over, and still, in the end when I had the computer read it back, a word was completely missing. Hearing it is totally different from reading it. Our minds fill in the missing word every time we view the sentence. Crazy. In some cases I couldn't believe it, and went back to check. Sure enough, it was missing all along. Another great reason to have the computer read the manuscript.

[Simon Wood]

I won't submit anything, not to my agent or my publisher without someone checking it first. There's a couple of reasons for this. First, I'm dyslexic and very self conscious about my writing. Second, I came from an engineering background, where everything had to be submitted to a checker then an approver, no matter my experience.

My work is read my variety of people from other writers, to editors and just fans of the genre. All these people give the kind of feedback I need whether to be copy editing, grammar or plotline. I don't think I could work without that 3rd party 'sanity' of my work.

[lene1949]

Originally Posted by HistoryWes

I paid for one professional edit and while it was not a horror story like some I've heard, he didn't catch every error

It's difficult for one person to catch every error. Ideally the edited copy should go to another editor after the 1st edit and maybe even a third.

and most of the suggestions for revision were things that I didn't want to follow-- specifically he wanted to correct the grammar in the dialog of characters who were supposed to speak incorrect grammar.

This is where a style sheet comes in handy.

Also, for those "I won't stand an error" folks, ebooks add a whole 'nuther problem as errors can creep in to a perfect manuscript during format conversion.

Another edit after conversion would be good, if that's the case.