Doctorow on the iPad

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by stustaff

closed box is great for some things and not others if anything it's not bad or good but different and it's the buyers choice if they choose a closed system, I jailbreak because I'm prepared to deal with the crashes I get and very occasional slow down. My wides isn't jailbroken and the fact that she can just use it and install anything from apple without worrying what it is and knowing things will always run smoothly is a big advantage to us.

I'm not saying open source is bad I have a Linux server and have used various open software I am even waiting onthe open source handheld pandora I love open source.
But you seem negative about an apple product because it isn't open source and I don't get that because lots of devices are closed as I mentioned, can you not see that for sone devices and some users it's a better option and that it's a good thing that we have a choice?

I don't really understand your point about if things go wrong? If my battery on my iPhone goes wrong I can send it to apple or buy a battery and fit it look around all parts are available in fact probably more readily available than many other 3 year old gadgets. My open source pandora for example I'd be worried how I get that repaired if it breaks in three years what with it having been made by some guys off of a forum! Just because it's open or closed doesn't really mean anything there are many other factors in the parts/ repair situation that open closed is almost irrelevant.

Sigh...

There are three levels of digital environments

1. Open - like Linux

2. Proprietary - like Windoze and Mac OS (I run mostly Windoze on my machines)

3. Closed - Xbox, iphone, iPad, ect...

I want to run something. Program, file (e-book, music, video), whatever. I can buy it to run on any one of the three environments - today. Will I be able to run it 10 years from now, 20 years from now, 30 years from now?
(Please note - the software, not the current hardware you run it on. With luck, you can run the same files for many generations of hardware.)

1. Almost certainly. There may need to be a tweak in the environment, but the source is there to be tweaked (for a fee if necessary).

2. Maybe, maybe not. For pure files, such as e-books and music, probably. If not, they would be convertible to a more modern file type, and conversion programs would be readily available. Programs are more dicey, but there is a world of emulators out there to run old software on, at least in the Windoze world. I've got a Windoze emulator that will run any (non DRM'ed) software back to Windoze 1.0. I don't know if there are any equally capable emulators for Mac back to the 128K monochrome days. And there are Apple II, Atari, Commodore, and CP-M emulators as well.

3. Fat chance. When the company decided to stop supporting your machines, soon your investment in software will be scrap. You can't just go buy another company's machine to run it on. Do you think that apple will be supporting today's iPhone apps 20 years from now? Does Apple support Motorola 680x0 Mac apps today?


A good piece of software should outlast you. Treating it as a throwaway, to me, is the same as lighting a fire with $20 bills.

But what do I know? I've just played with these little beasties since 1977....

[Bilbo1967]

Unfortunately, RSE, cogent as your argument is, it means nothing to Apple apologists like stustaff.

The Ipad is the ultimate expression of form over function. If the fact that it's a locked down, less functional notebook means nothing to these people, it's unlikely that your arguments will sway them. Because, like, wow man, you can touch the screen and stuff.

Bring on the "Apple hater, Steve Jobs is God, blah, blah, blah" type comments - you know I'm right.

[stustaff]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Of course it is. That closed-source is magically better because people can't see what's behind it or tinker with it.

your making up the reason why I feel closed source is better!

I feel closed source is better because the people building closed source are doing so because in many cases there are millions invested in the product! if closed source didnt exist they would not have invested millions and would have created a product that for the general end user is not as good/easy/complete.

lets look at some obvious contenders

Best handheld game console - DS or PSP either way closed!
Best home games consol - 360 or PS3 closed
Best Ereader - sony or kindle closed
Best laptop - nameany of teh top ten closed
Best TV remote - Harmony? closed
Best TV - sony or whatever Closed!
etc etc

there is some VERY good open source software but again closed is for the majority of end users better

OS - Win/osx Closed
photography - apeture or PS Closed
Games name any really Closed

Closed isbetter because all the good stuff is closed its that simple for me.
with our (western worlds) models/economies etc closed devices and software are better.

[Logseman]

Best Ereader - sony or kindle closed

I'm sure you're carrying an ignifugous vest as you speak. The flame can be mighty

[stustaff]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

Unfortunately, RSE, cogent as your argument is, it means nothing to Apple apologists like stustaff.

The Ipad is the ultimate expression of form over function. If the fact that it's a locked down, less functional notebook means nothing to these people, it's unlikely that your arguments will sway them. Because, like, wow man, you can touch the screen and stuff.

Bring on the "Apple hater, Steve Jobs is God, blah, blah, blah" type comments - you know I'm right.

Your not right.

I dont care WHO makes me a tablet that is NOT a laptop(I already have one and dont want to carry one on a train etc) that has a minimum 9 or 10 hours battery and is 9"ish screen and less than an inch thick.

I want to read my comics and watch films on a TABLET I like that form, the HP's battery is gimped and the Joo Joo is too large and not very well reviewed so far and has short battery.

What else exactly do I buy?

you dont like it or apple thats fine butthere isnt a better device for ME so what am I supposed to do.... thats right I'llbuy what I wantr and explain why if asked.

[stustaff]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Sigh...

There are three levels of digital environments

1. Open - like Linux

2. Proprietary - like Windoze and Mac OS (I run mostly Windoze on my machines)

3. Closed - Xbox, iphone, iPad, ect...

I want to run something. Program, file (e-book, music, video), whatever. I can buy it to run on any one of the three environments - today. Will I be able to run it 10 years from now, 20 years from now, 30 years from now?
(Please note - the software, not the current hardware you run it on. With luck, you can run the same files for many generations of hardware.)

1. Almost certainly. There may need to be a tweak in the environment, but the source is there to be tweaked (for a fee if necessary).

2. Maybe, maybe not. For pure files, such as e-books and music, probably. If not, they would be convertible to a more modern file type, and conversion programs would be readily available. Programs are more dicey, but there is a world of emulators out there to run old software on, at least in the Windoze world. I've got a Windoze emulator that will run any (non DRM'ed) software back to Windoze 1.0. I don't know if there are any equally capable emulators for Mac back to the 128K monochrome days. And there are Apple II, Atari, Commodore, and CP-M emulators as well.

3. Fat chance. When the company decided to stop supporting your machines, soon your investment in software will be scrap. You can't just go buy another company's machine to run it on. Do you think that apple will be supporting today's iPhone apps 20 years from now? Does Apple support Motorola 680x0 Mac apps today?


A good piece of software should outlast you. Treating it as a throwaway, to me, is the same as lighting a fire with $20 bills.

But what do I know? I've just played with these little beasties since 1977....

Really good points and quality reply however thats all very personal, to me software IS throwaway there is no software that I had even 3 years ago that I would even want to be able to use now, and 3 years from now I'll have the next new thing and wont care that a $5 app doesnt run on it because there will be something better.

btw I dont think your wrong just a different opinion and way of looking at it between us.

I feel the same about cars just not software.

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by stustaff

Your not right.

That would be "you're", but I wouldn't expect an Apple apologist to be able to spell.

Originally Posted by stustaff

I dont care WHO makes me a tablet that is NOT a laptop(I already have one and dont want to carry one on a train etc) that has a minimum 9 or 10 hours battery and is 9"ish screen and less than an inch thick.

Pretty sure I didn't mention laptops. And, by the way, it's "don't".

Originally Posted by stustaff

I want to read my comics and watch films on a TABLET I like that form, the HP's battery is gimped and the Joo Joo is too large and not very well reviewed so far and has short battery.

What else exactly do I buy?

you dont like it or apple thats fine butthere isnt a better device for ME so what am I supposed to do.... thats right I'llbuy what I wantr and explain why if asked.

I really don't care what you waste your money on, but the constant defence of indefensible shortcomings of the Ipad doesn't exactly scream "impartiality".

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by stustaff

your making up the reason why I feel closed source is better!

What, showing that you're totally unaware of how many of the devices you list are dependent on Linux or other open source software for their function? Certainly, you make a grand case for showing you know very little about what's behind the devices you list and the importance of open source software.

Or, for that matter, how much of closed-source software development depends on open sourced programs and libraries for basic functionality.

Linux-based devices sell far more than anything with Windows in it, let alone OSX.

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

I really don't care what you waste your money on, but the constant defence of indefensible shortcomings of the Ipad doesn't exactly scream "impartiality".

The problem is shortcomings aren't equal to everyone.

What's a deal breaker to one person, is a minor annoyance to the other.

I don't have an iPad, as I want to wait and see what else comes out in the tablet market in the coming months etc.

But most of the shortcomings really bothered me when playing around with my girlfriend's iPad. I just need a tablet to read and mark up PDFs, read books, read newspapers and magazines, read comics, do some web surfing, watch video, play some games etc. and the iPad does all of that quite well.

There are definite drawbacks like having to use iTunes to get files on it (which is a bit clunky for PDFs, photos etc.), not having a file/folder system on the iPad and having to get files into individual apps rather than having available in multiple apps, lack of flash, lack of multitasking etc.

But honestly, none of that stuff is a huge draw back for what I'd use a tablet for. I want to hold off a bit and make sure some Android tablets don't come out that do what I want even better, maybe wait for the 2nd generation iPad to come out and have any kinks worked out etc.

But for a first attempt at a tablet, they did a hell of a job IMO. It's not for people who need a full tablet PC, but for people like me who just want basically a media consumption tablet to supplement their laptops/pcs, they nearly hit the nail on the head as it would be pretty much flawless for my needs if it was a bit more open and easier to get files on.

But in all honestly, I don't care much about the open/closed issue myself. I really only care whether a device I buy suits my needs. I don't care much about being able to tweak and customize things, having access to software years down the road on other devices etc. But to each their own on that front.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

That would be "you're", but I wouldn't expect an Apple apologist to be able to spell.


....

Oooooooooh!

[stustaff]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

That would be "you're", but I wouldn't expect an Apple apologist to be able to spell.

I dont expect you to know the difference between punctuation and spelling but you dont see me pointing that out

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

Pretty sure I didn't mention laptops. And, by the way, it's "don't".

wow another fine spot you said netbooks and I said laptops.. your not smart enough to be able to realise that? and man the punctuation again frankly Im embarrassed by my own performance, I keep forgetting this is being submitted as part of my doctorate paper.

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

I really don't care what you waste your money on, but the constant defence of indefensible shortcomings of the Ipad doesn't exactly scream "impartiality".

why are you posting then? they arent shortcomings for me, can you not understand that?

[Logseman]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Oooooooooh!

Indeed.

[stustaff]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

What, showing that you're totally unaware of how many of the devices you list are dependent on Linux or other open source software for their function? Certainly, you make a grand case for showing you know very little about what's behind the devices you list and the importance of open source software.

Or, for that matter, how much of closed-source software development depends on open sourced programs and libraries for basic functionality.

Linux-based devices sell far more than anything with Windows in it, let alone OSX.

Maybe I dont understand open source then, I believed that for a device to be truly open source the software(all of it) and hardware((i.e.schematics, bill of materials and PCB layout data) must be completely available for others to use in accordance with a licence tied to the device?

which of those devices is open or uses open software Id love to know which of those manafacturers licence the entire operating system under an open licence.

[Dr. Drib]

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(Moderator)

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by stustaff

I dont expect you to know the difference between punctuation and spelling but you dont see me pointing that out





wow another fine spot you said netbooks and I said laptops.. your not smart enough to be able to realise that? and man the punctuation again frankly Im embarrassed by my own performance, I keep forgetting this is being submitted as part of my doctorate paper.



why are you posting then? they arent shortcomings for me, can you not understand that?

Well, the lack of a necessary apostrophe in a word is a spelling and not a punctuation mistake. I let the punctuation slide; I could have pointed out your inability to use commas, but I was being nice.

I doubt you're submitting a doctorate paper. If you are, probably best to give up now and save yourself a lot of heartache.

I was, and will continue, posting because my opinion is as valid as yours (and better spelt and punctuated to boot ).