Doctorow on the iPad

[stustaff]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

No, it's not. If you go to Microsoft or Sony with a proposal for a game, they'll look at it and say "yes" or "no", subject to you following a thick book of technical requirements. You then make the software, they check it against their TRC's and then approve it. If they won't, you find out very early on in the process.

The iPod/Pad? You have to make the software, then submit it, and only THEN you find out if it's been accepted or not - after you've already created the entire program.

These situations are not equivalent!




And again...no, it's not. Software is software is software. The unfairness is when you try and say a walled garden somehow makes the device behind it "different". It's not. Moreover, most devices are not locked down, and the trend is for more and not less openness in development.

It's AOL vs the Internet, all over again.

Sony tell you whats allowed and look at your game and say YES(im pretty sure that they withhold the right to say no based on viewing the final version however)
Apple tell you whats allowed but dont look at your idea until its finished and say Yes or No, any developer Knows this to be the case so they have a choice!

So yes it is the same as you could end up making something that the gatekeeper decides not to allow you to publish for their device

Apple should imo have teh right to do that if its what they want to do its not like its a secret that its what they do!

[DawnFalcon]

Sony have the right to, however in practice I can think of ONE case where they did it, and frankly the devs were being asshats. Apple do it on a regular basis, and they don't have any sort of screening process. Not the same at all. It's simply factually incorrect to say that the treatment of devs is in any way equal between the two application processes.

I say this as someone who's experienced both, I'd add.

And wow, another brilliant defence of "corporate rights", "bend over and do what we say". Sigh. (And yes, their criteria ARE secret, in part. This is a good part of the issue!)

[stustaff]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Sony have the right to, however in practice I can think of ONE case where they did it, and frankly the devs were being asshats. Apple do it on a regular basis, and they don't have any sort of screening process. Not the same at all. It's simply factually incorrect to say that the treatment of devs is in any way equal between the two application processes.

I say this as someone who's experienced both, I'd add.

And wow, another brilliant defence of "corporate rights", "bend over and do what we say". Sigh. (And yes, their criteria ARE secret, in part. This is a good part of the issue!)

Yet people still choose to make apps! isnt that weird in fact more apps than for any other equivalent device or in fact all other devices added together.

its swings and roundabouts i guess.

the point is people know all of that dawnfalcon and I would defend Apples rights to do whatever they choose on a device they make and sell!

No one has to buy an iPhone or program for the iPhone if people were unhappy enough then they would do neither and apple would start making more open devices.

However the market and apples success seems to say that as far as the majority are concerned tehy couldnt care less about walled gardens.

[DawnFalcon]

Some people make apps. A fair few devs I know are not, precisely because of Apple's attitude. It's very hard to make any significant money off the iStore, and of the devs I know there's a lot more interest in Android and Linux (for the wave of slate PC's later this year) than there is the iStore.

the point is people know all of that dawnfalcon and I would defend Apples rights to do whatever they choose on a device they make and sell!

...

Why do you feel the need to lie like that? No, I don't support anything such. I support the freedom to tinker, and adherence to the law on users rights.

The "walled garden" was AOL's approach, and like AOL it's going to be rolled up handily when there are decent alternatives on the market, alternatives which are now rapidly gaining ground.

[stustaff]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Some people make apps. A fair few devs I know are not, precisely because of Apple's attitude. It's very hard to make any significant money off the iStore, and of the devs I know there's a lot more interest in Android and Linux (for the wave of slate PC's later this year) than there is the iStore.



...

Why do you feel the need to lie like that? No, I don't support anything such. I support the freedom to tinker, and adherence to the law on users rights.

The "walled garden" was AOL's approach, and like AOL it's going to be rolled up handily when there are decent alternatives on the market, alternatives which are now rapidly gaining ground.

erm lie like what? I have no idea what you mean? im assuming you misread something?

EDIT ah I see is this clearer "the point is people know all of that dawnfalcon. And I would defend Apples rights to do whatever they choose on a device they make and sell!

The devs you know isnt really a good look at the whole dev industry though, I would suggest actual apps created is a better judge and on that basis devs CURRENTLY favour developing on iPhone even with Apples approach hence there are many more apps being made for iDevices.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by stustaff

Yet people still choose to make apps!

Yes, there are always any number of people willing to put money above ethics.

[stustaff]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

Yes, there are always any number of people willing to put money above ethics.

What money? I dont know any iPhone devs but Dawnfalcon does and she points out "It's very hard to make any significant money off the iStore"

Or maybe your assuming things about others ethics and other people dont have an ethical problem with working on devs in the apple way.

I bet it probably is fame and money though

[DawnFalcon]

No, I read what you posted, which was very poor grammatically, but the meaning was clear - you claimed that I had the same view as you. I do not.

And yes, let's look at app numbers, shall we?

Android - 30,000 apps.
iPhone - 140,000 apps.

At the same point in it's store run, the iPhone had about 20,000 apps. Also, the iPhone had a Q3 2009 market share of 18%, to Android's 3%. Moreover, the android store's interface discourages the sort of "app spamming" (very similar apps, for example 100 "knowledge base" apps) which Apple's policies encourage.

Hmm. Oh, and there's the fact that HTC has several hundred engineers currently working inside Google's HQ. Wonder what they might be working on...

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by stustaff

What money? I dont know any iPhone devs but Dawnfalcon does and she points out "It's very hard to make any significant money off the iStore"

Or maybe your assuming things about others ethics and other people dont have an ethical problem with working on devs in the apple way.

Okay, desire for money.

As for the "ethics" part, I am of the firm opinion that Apple's censoring based on content (see some of my earlier links) is a Genuinely Bad Thing. And that anyone who lies down with dogs wakes up with fleas.

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

As for the "ethics" part, I am of the firm opinion that Apple's censoring based on content (see some of my earlier links) is a Genuinely Bad Thing. And that anyone who lies down with dogs wakes up with fleas.

I'm really not prepared to condemn any dev for putting up iPhone apps, but I'm also quite willing to criticise apple based on their policies for app submission and management - which is far less about censorship and far more about consistency and fairness.

[stustaff]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

No, I read what you posted, which was very poor grammatically, but the meaning was clear - you claimed that I had the same view as you. I do not.

No I Didnt claim that!

What I tried to say was-

"the point is people know all of that dawnfalcon(there should be a fullstop here i was reffering to the fact that all of the devs know what Apple is like) and I would defend Apples rights to do whatever they choose on a device they make and sell!(This is what I believe)"

So apple started a brand new market for apps and got 20k
Droid piggy backed on this (how many of those apps and devs and companies existed because of apple) and got 30k.

Thats great by the way Im not pro apple and anti everyone else.
I believe Droid has the right to do what they want and so do apple!

nothing you have said though changes the fact that apples app store has more apps and makes more money for its devs than droids! TODAY.

I hate how due to apples wall I have to jailbreak to let my iPhone act as a wifi server to my laptop when im travelling!

But I defend apples rights to choose to operate that way.

[DawnFalcon]

Right, thanks for the correction.

And piggy-backed, right. Sorry, you're making excuses, given Android has a sixth of the market share. And yes, I'm quite aware - you've made it very plain - that you're very strongly on the corporate side, regardless. I disagree, there's a lot they could do better, especially since they're gatekeeping!

[djgreedo]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

If it really, really bothers you and you want an iPhone, you can always jailbreak your iphone/iTouch/iPad and download some of the apps for jailbroken iPhones. That way you get the best of both world. For the most part, Apple has ignored the jailbreak community.

Jailbreaking voids warranty on a very expensive product. Voiding warranty to get functionality and freedom that all other platforms already have is not an ideal situation for a consumer.

Once again, compare the iPhone development community verse the Android development community. Consumers have voted with their pocket book and have overwhelmingly gone the iPhone route. If you don't want to go that route, it's fine. A robust marketplace gives people all sorts of choices. But insisting that true consumer choice is only possible if everyone makes the same choice as you is rather egocentric.

You are mistaken. The iPhone was released a good 18 months before the first Android phones were available. The iPhone was the first phone of its type to be accessible by non-techy consumers, and so the iPhone has had a huge head start in terms of sales and number of applications available.

The Android platform has actually caught up with the iPhone in terms of sales now, and it is apparent that Android still has a lot of growth in it, whereas the iPhone has already started to decline (e.g. the geeks have now abandoned the iPhone for the more open platforms, and once Windows Mobile 7 comes out Windows will probably regain a few % of the market and overtake the iPhone).

Unless Apple open up their platform (not likely), the iPhone will have a sharp decline (and, quite frankly, if you look at the figures the iPhone is nowhere near as popular as you would think from all the attention and press it gets).

[djgreedo]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Right, thanks for the correction.

And piggy-backed, right. Sorry, you're making excuses, given Android has a sixth of the market share. And yes, I'm quite aware - you've made it very plain - that you're very strongly on the corporate side, regardless. I disagree, there's a lot they could do better, especially since they're gatekeeping!

For a high turnover product like phones, sales are more important than market share. Android phones now sell the same amount as iPhones.

The current marketshare is about 20% iPhone and 5% Android, but Android is growing more quickly as iPhone has started to slow down in momentum.

[djgreedo]

Originally Posted by stustaff

So apple started a brand new market for apps and got 20k
Droid piggy backed on this (how many of those apps and devs and companies existed because of apple) and got 30k.

Selling the apps from the handset is not the same as 'starting a brand new market'. I was buying and using mobile apps long before the iPhone was available, and Windows Mobile had around 30,000 apps before the iPhone had 1.

Android has not piggybacked on the iPhone any more than any technology piggybacks on previous technology.

Apple's marketing team sure does a great job of convincing the world they invented the phone and tablet PC.