Price drop brings out new critics

[monkeywrench]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The so-called PDF "problems" are down to the restrictions of the PDF format itself, not the Reader. The fact that there is no good way of reading an A4/Letter sized page on a screen 1/6th the area is not Sony's "fault".

I agree with you 100% that the technical issues with the reader not displaying PDFs is not Sony's fault but I do think that they need to be more clear on their packaging and PR materials.

I was really curious about what Sony actually put on the packaging about PDF support and I found it under Product Specifications. Let me preface this by saying that Sony was nice enough to put footnotes about caveats in this section and there are 5 of them.

*1 cannot operate while connected with USB.
*2 Actual battery life may vary based on usage patterns.
*3 Available storage capacity of Reader may vary.
*4 "Memory Stick", SD Card not included.
*5 Headphones are not included.

Not too far above these notes does it say that Adobe PDF is a supported format. But note that there is NOT a caveat listed for this.

I'm sorry Harry but I think it is wrong to point all of this back on the people buying the product. Sony could easily have added a *6 stating that reading standard A4/Letter size PDFs will require additional software and size conversion.

This is obviously a large issue as there are new threads created in this forum every day about PDF support on the reader. In fact if someone were to count I think the percentage of PDF related posts is probably greater than any other subject. Thank goodness these people come to the forum to ask for advice on viewing PDFs on the reader. For every person that does land on this forum inquiring about PDFs how many don't?

Originally Posted by RWood

Most Windows users keep all of their files in "My Documents" so this is just an extension of normal user habits.

I must say that this argument bothers me a bit as well. I have seen in several threads where a couple of people continuously use this logic. If every piece of software was written for the lowest common denominator there would be very little market for tech gadgets or computers in general. I think this is the reason why companies like Microsoft create low end versions of their software and then higher end versions that more adept users would buy. Some software even has an "Advanced" mode built into it. This all comes down to giving users choice. I like having a choice! So maybe they can create a flat file system for those that want them and a more advanced hierarchical directory structure for others.

I am very happy with the reader. For the most part it fits my needs and I realize that we are early adopters. I just don't think putting down other users for not understanding the misleading information put out by Sony is the right way to go. I see this product for what it is and hope that some of the things that are discussed in these forums will push the innovation for the next revision be it hardware or firmware.

[Dylrob]

Originally Posted by BobVA

I'm not sure panning would work with the slow refresh rate of the eInk display. Maybe that's what drove design of the current half-page landscape display mode (the Reader only has to make a single refresh to show the remainder of the page).

Cheers,
Bob

Smooth panning would not be practical. There's no reason it couldn't pan in segments though; this is already possible with the picture viewer, and I believe is how the Iliad handles PDFs (or I'm I mistaken?).

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by RWood

The native structure of a PDF file is designed for printing and is often used by the advertising industry in sending copy to publications for insertion. It does not reflow.

See, this is why I don't get why there's still a PDF problem: PDFs can reflow! I've created and used tagged PDFs, and have read them on my Toshiba PDA, and they reflow like the Dickens! I have such a copy of The War of the Worlds, and it reflows beautifully on my PDA's Acrobat Reader!

So why, oh, why do all of these readers say they support PDFs, but not reflowing? It's insane. IMO, any reader that cannot support tagged, reflowable PDFs shouldn't be allowed to say they support PDFs at all.

[JSWolf]

Steve, can you attach a reflowable PDF please? I'd love to try it with the Sony.

That said, most PDF are set for printing and do not reflow. PDF as an ebook format was one of the biggest cockups that Adobe has efer done. It's not an ebook format at all. It's a piss poor ebook format on a portable handheld device. And converting PDF to something else doesn't always properly work. Even Acrobat can screw it up. Take Harry Potter 7. I've seen the PDF of it. The first few paragraphs looks fine when viewed as a PDF. But convert it from PDF and they end up running together. I have no idea why this is, but even Acrobat cannot get it right.

I see people say they get PDF from work. Well, what format are the original documents in? Most of the time it's some Word document. And that is usually fairly simple to convert to look good on the reader.

Bookeen (sp?) just announced that it's initial release of the Gen3 won't have PDF support. Smart thing to do since if you can't get it right, don't do it.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Steve, can you attach a reflowable PDF please? I'd love to try it with the Sony.

Attached is a "tagged" PDF of my short story The First Expedition, created on a Windows 2000 PC using Word 2000. I just generated and tested this file on my Toshiba PDA's Acrobat Reader 2.0. It reflows fine, and re-reflows if you adjust the font size. As I said, I've read full novels like this, and it's as good as reading a LIT file (tho Acrobat Reader isn't as smooth as MS Reader).

Everyone else, feel free to try this for reflow on your readers and other devices, too... this is a freebie from my site.

[Cthulhu]

@ Steve:

Dumb question: Is there anything that needs to be done to the file in order to allow "flowing," save using Connect software to transfer it to the reader?
(pardon the ignorance; got the Reader Tues and am still learning how to use it)

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Sorry, I have no idea (I don't have a Reader, myself... only the Sony Connect emulator). I actually haven't tried the PDF on the emulator, but even if I did, I don't know if it would work the same as the real reader.

Edit: Okay, I've discovered that PDFs do indeed open up on the emulator. However, it presents them as pages in a screen, with only small and medium settings operative... it will not enlarge beyond the page margins, so it does not reflow. The pages' top margins are also cut off, so it doesn't look so hot. And the image on the top of the first page is cut off.

[Fugubot]

Here's another one:

http://www.bookofjoe.com/2007/08/sony-reader-on-.html

_________________________

I really didn't mean to start a thread about PDFs.

I just thought it was interesting that even the most passionate defenders of the Reader, like Harry, can't seem to share enthusiasm about the Reader without disclaimers. Even saying the pdf issues are Adobe's fault is not equivalent to saying "The Reader works great." Its always, "The Reader works for me...if I accept the pdf reader is not easy to use...if I keep my expectations in line...if I don't mind that I can't just say the thing just works..."

The attitude that everything's great as it is, when some criticism has been consistent since the reader was released, is only helpful if the device was destined for an esoteric niche market. Most corporations want to enlarge market share and the discussion I wanted to start was whether the recent price drop was sufficient to generate new mass market enthusiasm for the product. It seems to me that its generating the reverse type of buzz: "Its cheaper but its still flawed..."

A lot of people, myself included, like the Reader and think that its' a very good first generation product. But a price drop does not address usability issues.

Since the PDF subject has dominated this thread, consider that Harry's convinced that "You only have two choices - reduce the document size to fit the screen, or have a system of 'panning' the screen over the PDF page." If Harry believes this, then he has a lower opinion of Sony's engineers than I do. Sony has a long distinguished history of innovation, from the first mass market transistor radios to the walkman, the mavica cameras in their day, etc. Problem solving was what made their products stand out even when competitors entered the field.

Recently, Apple's iphone browser demonstrated that there are still engineers out their with amazing new solutions to old nagging problems. Google routinely releases new products to the public that are unfinished but, and this is part of the fun, they evolve fairly rapidly over time. Not every product works, but you get the feeling that these guys are striving for excellence and receive criticism with a renewed sense of purpose to improve a good product until its a great product.

I don't mean to bash on Harry but his comments seem a great example of how, with no improvements or innovations to look forward to (I mean, who knows?), even an enthusiast for the Reader produces the worst type of word-of-mouth. When you begin a defense of the product by writing, "I still think, though, that it's a case of caveat emptor - 'let the buyer beware.'"

C'mon Sony! With friends like these...

[Cthulhu]

So I tried posting here earlier, and it didn't work.

I think that maybe everyone expects too much of the lovely little Reader, critics and apologists alike.
I took my new Reader to a friend's place to show it off. They were a little perplexed as to what it was, and it took a bit to explain.
The best way to show off this gadget is to say: "Check out my new electronic book/bookcase/shelf/library. Neat, huh?"
With my friends, I had to explain, "no, there's no backlight. You need an external light source. Backlighting creates eyestrain, that's bad, OK?....This looks like paper....it doesn't do animation, its a simple, mutable display that require virtually no energy, which means little charging."

Anyway, the point is that this is the best d**n book I have ever bought. That is what the Reader is; a book replacement device. I beleive, from my limited use of it, that it excels at this task.
As to some of its shortcomings, I believe--perhaps wrongly--that the idea was to create a neat-looking display with a very basic CPU. No wi-fi, no touchscreen, just like a book.
Regarding the lack of collexions/cataloging on a SD card, I believe that the problem lies with the card being a "dumb" storage device and the Reader being a "simple" device. Maybe using a USB card reader and some explorer type program, catagories and folders may be created and seen by the Reader. Whether this is a limitation of the card of the Reader itself, I do not know.

Even before I had a Reader, I chafed at the people demeaning it for not having wi-fi, colour, a touchscreen, &tc. A Book allows humans to transfer squiggles into ideas via magic. The Reader does the same thing, brilliantly and wonderfully.

If I have a complaint with the Reader, it is the Connect software that is touchy about my air-card internet access. Otherwise, anyone who thinks that I am not whole-heartedly thrilled with the device misunderstands me.

Regarding SONY's reluctance to innovate, remember that the model A went 45 mph tops and had no windscreen. New, improved features will most likely come with time, and with time, perhaps even SONY can amend their model of customer interaction and service (which I will concede can be found lacking).

[Fugubot]

Cthulhu,

I think you very elegantly express what is good about the product. Its not meant to be a laptop or a tablet replacement. I also completely relate to your attempts to explain to friends why you like the device.

A lot of innovation can be found in E-ink's display technology and Sony has been way ahead of the curve in getting long battery life for its portable players. Its earliest digital cameras had proprietary batteries that could indicate roughly how much time remained in the charge. I know Sony will continue to innovate somewhere but will it improve the Reader?

Its not clear to me that Sony considers the reader worth continued development and resources. A while back, Stringer mentioned adding wi-fi, which if recent history is any indication seems to just promise shorter battery life. Unfortunately, most consumer tech these days aren't granted Model A development cycles. The product's innovation may yet lie in a smaller and more dynamic competitor. If that happens, it will be more the result of Sony allowing the market to slip away rather than from a defeat after an aggressive attempt to hold on to its, admittedly early, lead.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by KlondikeGeoff

What's more, I doubt if even you could honestly say that the CONNECT site is not one of the worst in the free world, even though you seem to think that Sony can do no wrong.

I'm afraid I'm not in a position to comment on the Connect book store - I've never used it. I've certainly heard many people say that it could use improvement.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by ghostwheel

Sorry, I do not agree. There are tools available that make it possible to read pdfs on the reader by rendering the page on the computer, and saving the result as a picture, which can then be viewed on the reader. (PDF RasterFarian). They achieve much better readability than the original pdf file. If the reader did exactly the same rendering by default, pdfs would be much more readable. What is needed, I think is: fonts are too thin. PDF fonts need to drawn bolder. Reader should be able to autocrop edges, or enable the user to zoom in.

PDFRasterfarian takes a lot of processing power - it would be way too slow to run on the Reader's low-power, slow, CPU. Also - and please correct me if I'm wrong - but doesn't it need a certain amount of "manual" tweaking to give good results with a given PDF file? Could it be used as an automated tool which would work well on all PDF files?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Fugubot

I just thought it was interesting that even the most passionate defenders of the Reader, like Harry, can't seem to share enthusiasm about the Reader without disclaimers. Even saying the pdf issues are Adobe's fault is not equivalent to saying "The Reader works great." Its always, "The Reader works for me...if I accept the pdf reader is not easy to use...if I keep my expectations in line...if I don't mind that I can't just say the thing just works..."

The attitude that everything's great as it is, when some criticism has been consistent since the reader was released, is only helpful if the device was destined for an esoteric niche market. Most corporations want to enlarge market share and the discussion I wanted to start was whether the recent price drop was sufficient to generate new mass market enthusiasm for the product. It seems to me that its generating the reverse type of buzz: "Its cheaper but its still flawed..."

Fugubot,

That, I think, is the core of the problem. The Reader is designed for a niche market - that of reading fiction. It is designed to be a replacement for a paperback book. For the task of reading fiction from end to end, it excels; truly, it does.

It doesn't work well when it comes to, say, reading PDF textbooks - that's not what it was designed for. If that is someone's main goal, they'd be a lot better off using a Tablet PC with an A4 screen.

I'm certainly not an "apologist" for Sony; they are perfectly capable of making their own apologia if they feel a need to do so. I just get a little tired reading complaints from people who have bought a Reader for tasks that it was never intended to perform, and then moan that it doesn't do them.

I certainly believe that Sony should put a disclaimer on the Reader specifications saying that it cannot be used (sensibly) to read A4/Letter sized PDFs; that seems to be the biggest issue that people have, but really, they should never have bought the Reader if that is their primary interest - and yes, Sony certainly need to take responsibility for not making that clear.

[induna]

I think Harry stated the situation correctly in his last post. The Reader is designed for reading books from beginning to end. It does this superbly. It is, in many respects, a better tool for reading than a paperback, and that is saying something. It is small, light, easy to hold, convenient, and has re-sizable text for those of us who are getting older. It also remembers where you left off in each of your books.

Let me give a brief, practical example of how useful the Reader can be. A couple of weeks ago I quite unexpectedly ended up in the ICU of my local hospital for 4 days. (I'm absolutely fine now.) The Reader was an absolute life-saver. I read about 5-6 books without having to recharge at all. I had everything I needed to keep me occupied for many many unpleasant and sleepless hours in that little box. Much easier than sending someone home to grab a bunch of books. It's also much easier to read in bed with than a book, especially when the person reading is wired for sound.

All that being said, it certainly is, and will always be, a niche product. It is primarily designed for serious readers, and there simply aren't that many of those. I am very happy that the Reader basically does one thing and does it very well. I don't want it to connect to the internet, or display my photos, or keep my schedule, or even display any possible file. (Standardization of ebook formats would be very nice, though.) When I'm reading a book, I don't want to be distracted with all that. If I have to take a little time to convert a book into the Reader's format or fix up a PDF, big deal. I'll spend more time reading it than I spent getting it in shape.

I, too, would prefer an hierarchical file system. However, a nice cover that had storage for a few SD cards would go along way to limiting the need for one.

I think many people will never really see what the big deal about the Reader is. "All it does is display words? That's it?". Yes, that's it!

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by HarryT

PDFRasterfarian takes a lot of processing power - it would be way too slow to run on the Reader's low-power, slow, CPU. Also - and please correct me if I'm wrong - but doesn't it need a certain amount of "manual" tweaking to give good results with a given PDF file? Could it be used as an automated tool which would work well on all PDF files?

Okay, then why isn't it included in the Connect software?

Heck, why did we have to wait for independent developers to come out with all the conversion software? Why couldn't Sony have come up with them?

I, for one, only considered the Sony reader after I learned about the various formats I could convert from. I would not have bought the Reader otherwise.



P.S. Harry, I don't mean to snipe at you. It's just the irritation I feel with the software limitations Sony deliberately used to cripple a really nice piece of hardware.