Global warming or not?

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Now, now, their minds are made up. Don't confuse them with facts.

Ah, yes. Please don't confuse us with facts!

Climate Change Myths and Facts
By Chris Mooney

(Chris Mooney is the author of The Republican War on Science and co-author of How Scientific Illiteracy Threatens Our Future.)

[kennyc]

Let's see two Facts walk into this bar...

one says to the other

[happy_terd]

So is it true that the believers refuse to debate the nonbelievers in a formal debate?

You'd figure if people like Al Gore thought the world was ending they would be like "OH yeah let me show you why" rather then running and hiding like a wimp every time someone mentions a debate.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by happy_terd

So is it true that the believers refuse to debate the nonbelievers in a formal debate?

You'd figure if people like Al Gore thought the world was ending they would be like "OH yeah let me show you why" rather then running and hiding like a wimp every time someone mentions a debate.

Not really the point. Nothing is 'proven' by debating. This is science we're talking about.

Debating about Global Warming is like Debating about Evolution.

The deniers are simply wrong.

[happy_terd]

A televised debate would help people like me who are teetering.

For every 1 jackass scientist that says yes I hear about 1 that says no.

The main reason why people like me do not believe is because 90% of it seems political. I would rather burn up then believe that jackass Al Gore. The guy is a tool.

Show us the weighed evidence.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by happy_terd

A televised debate would help people like me who are teetering.

For every 1 jackass scientist that says yes I hear about 1 that says no.

The main reason why people like me do not believe is because 90% of it seems political. I would rather burn up then believe that jackass Al Gore. The guy is a tool.

Show us the weighed evidence.

Again that's not the point. I agree the media is a circus whether it's global warming or what color panties Lady Gaga wears, but it's irrelevant. There are always going to be opinions, but that's not what matters and you and I are not going to make the decisions anyway the friggin' politicians are and they should be listening to the Science. The results are clear, concise and beyond reproach just like with evolution, but you still see people claiming it is wrong.

The point is to not listen to the media, the blowhards or anyone with an ax to grind (or protect). Read the science from reputable sources, make up your own mind if you are really interested. Don't sit like 95% of the U.S.A. population and expect to be spoon-fed pablum. And when you make up your own mind then certainly you are more than welcome to share that with your political representatives but I'm hoping that they will be doing the same thing, listening to the scientists who know what they are doing and getting their information from reliable scientific sources, not from the media or the corporate interests.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by happy_terd

So is it true that the believers refuse to debate the nonbelievers in a formal debate?

You'd figure if people like Al Gore thought the world was ending they would be like "OH yeah let me show you why" rather then running and hiding like a wimp every time someone mentions a debate.

James Carville wrote:

"You know, back in 2000 a Republican friend of mine warned me that if I voted for Al Gore and he won, the stock market would tank, we'd lose millions of jobs, and our military would be totally overstretched. You know what: I did vote for Al Gore, he did win, and I'll be damned if all those things didn't come true."
— James Carville, Had Enough? (© 2003), Introduction: The Lesson of the Transgender Amendment

Somehow every time someone mentions Al Gore, this quote come to mind.

[happy_terd]

I voted for the guy down the street.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Again that's not the point. I agree the media is a circus whether it's global warming or what color panties Lady Gaga wears, but it's irrelevant. There are always going to be opinions, but that's not what matters and you and I are not going to make the decisions anyway the friggin' politicians are and they should be listening to the Science. The results are clear, concise and beyond reproach just like with evolution, but you still see people claiming it is wrong.

The point is to not listen to the media, the blowhards or anyone with an ax to grind (or protect). Read the science from reputable sources, make up your own mind if you are really interested. Don't sit like 95% of the U.S.A. population and expect to be spoon-fed pablum. And when you make up your own mind then certainly you are more than welcome to share that with your political representatives but I'm hoping that they will be doing the same thing, listening to the scientists who know what they are doing and getting their information from reliable scientific sources, not from the media or the corporate interests.

But I look at all the evidence, not just the limited set that has been included by scientists who have not been, ahem, completely objective...

When you take as conclusive evidence, for example tree rings, from less than 5 trees, and at the same time, ignore written historical records that point to a different set of data, the historical (and widespread) records being minimised as being "from a localised environment variance" while the few tree rings come from an even more minimized regional variance, yes, I have a problem with it. And that's not being political or debating. It's stating why I have problems with "anthropomorphic global warming" as being currently defined. That's why I don't just stop at the scientist's conclusions, I look at the data. Leaving out what doesn't fit your theory is an old scientific trap, called "massaging the data". the more you look at the data, the more "massaged" it looks.

Where it gets "political", it the idea that we have to make drastic changes to our civilization - or else! The sort of changes that will lead to millions of deaths due to starvation over time. (How many people went hungry in the third world when we shifted corn from food to ethanol?) To channel Kenneth Mars in Young Frankenstein - "If ve're going to risk starving millions of peeple, ve need to demmed sure of our facts." Und ve aren't, no matter what your beliefs are.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

But I look at all the evidence, .....

Hmmmm......and you are a practicing climate scientist? You have published papers in the field or theories in your name? If not, you are just more of the banter which I advocating ignoring.

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Leaving out what doesn't fit your theory is an old scientific trap, called "massaging the data". the more you look at the data, the more "massaged" it looks.

Sorry Ralph, but that is not what science does. That's what the media and politicians and corporations with their own agendas do. As Sam Harris says, Science at its core is Intellectually Honesty.

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Where it gets "political", it the idea that we have to make drastic changes to our civilization - or else! The sort of changes that will lead to millions of deaths due to starvation over time. (How many people went hungry in the third world when we shifted corn from food to ethanol?) To channel Kenneth Mars in Young Frankenstein - "If ve're going to risk starving millions of peeple, ve need to demmed sure of our facts." Und ve aren't, no matter what your beliefs are.

Um...no. Politics is as much about using the media to manipulate people as the media itself is. What I'm advocating is that decisions (particularly environmental decisions) that affect me and my loved ones as well as my children and grandchildren can and should be made based on the best science that is available, not based on what someone 'believes.' Facts not fiction. The Fact is that humans have caused global warming as well as overpopulation (and the two are linked). We must do what we can, as soon as we can to prevent the catastrophes that have already begun in drought stricken countries in Africa where people are dying by the thousands every day. It's not something this is going to happen because of what we do, it is something that is happening right now as I and you type these words. There are things we can do right now to address them. Will you?

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Hmmmm......and you are a practicing climate scientist? You have published papers in the field or theories in your name? If not, you are just more of the banter which I advocating ignoring.



Sorry Ralph, but that is not what science does. That's what the media and politicians and corporations with their own agendas do. As Sam Harris says, Science at its core is Intellectually Honesty.



Um...no. Politics is as much about using the media to manipulate people as the media itself is. What I'm advocating is that decisions (particularly environmental decisions) that affect me and my loved ones as well as my children and grandchildren can and should be made based on the best science that is available, not based on what someone 'believes.' Facts not fiction. The Fact is that humans have caused global warming as well as overpopulation (and the two are linked). We must do what we can, as soon as we can to prevent the catastrophes that have already begun in drought stricken countries in Africa where people are dying by the thousands every day. It's not something this is going to happen because of what we do, it is something that is happening right now as I and you type these words. There are things we can do right now to address them. Will you?

Only when I am convinced they are needed. And the current science doesn't convince me. I am not changing my lifestyle to fit your beliefs.

Nor do I automatically believe anything a scientist say, just because he is a scientist. Nor would have any of the scientists I ever dealt with expected me to. I may take as valid because I lack the background or equipment to verify something, but not as Gospel just because a working scientist says it. Phlogsten, anybody?

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Only when I am convinced they are needed. And the current science doesn't convince me. I am not changing my lifestyle to fit your beliefs.

Nor do I automatically believe anything a scientist say, just because he is a scientist. Nor would have any of the scientists I ever dealt with expected me to. I may take as valid because I lack the background or equipment to verify something, but not as Gospel just because a working scientist says it. Phlogsten, anybody?

Good for you. I would also urge you to not spread rumors and unproven information (particularly in the guise of being science) and to actually think about those things others say to make at least a judgment for yourself as to whether they are actual science or just someone's belief.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled bar-b-que!

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Good for you. I would also urge you to not spread rumors and unproven information (particularly in the guise of being science) and to actually think about those things others say to make at least a judgment for yourself as to whether they are actual science or just someone's belief.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled bar-b-que!

Grab a beer...

I am not spreading rumors and unproven information. I'm merely pointing out pieces of information that I feel have been "massaged out" for scientific scrutiny, because it was "inconvenient" to somebody's theory.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Grab a beer...

I am not spreading rumors and unproven information. I'm merely pointing out pieces of information that I feel have been "massaged out" for scientific scrutiny, because it was "inconvenient" to somebody's theory.

I know you feel that way but you are simply wrong. You ARE spreading rumors and untruths. What you call 'massaged out' I call, at best "spin" and at worst flat out lies.

As I said in the beginning leave the science to the scientists.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by kennyc

I know you feel that way but you are simply wrong. You ARE spreading rumors and untruths. What you call 'massaged out' I call, at best "spin" and at worst flat out lies.

As I said in the beginning leave the science to the scientists.

And the rules to the believers to enforce....