Seriously thoughtful Sign petitions for animal rights in China

[recluse]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

I've no interest in getting into a debate about how "bad" the US or the UK are. I'm talking about a poison that has knowingly and repeatedly been put into numerous products. if you want to debate other issues, fine do it in another thread. I'm addressing a request to support animal rights in a country that has little value of human rights. in no way can anyone equate the status of the US and UK with China in that regard

Unfortunately, attacking the US is an automatic response for the Left. Particularly when you question the activities of the criminals financing the current administration.

[emonti8384]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

The problem is, while many in China are at a 1st World level of income, the average Chinese citizen (which means a bigger population than the US or Europe) still is very poor, rural, and living at a subsistence level-- meaning struggling to not starve to death. "Animal rights" is a luxury invented by people who are safe, secure, and well fed, not people who have to live in the real world as it has been for most of human history. And the anthropomorphizing of animals is a cultural thing that isn't shared by all cultures. So by demanding that some other country with their own (deeply ancient) culture bend themselves to what outsiders tell them is how they should value animals and which animals they should be allowed to eat is not only naive, but smacks of racism. If millions of people in India got up a petition to tell Americans and Europeans to stop eating cows, we would at most laugh at it, and most likely ignore it. Just like China can (and should) for outsiders trying to tell them what they can eat.

I'm not sure how much of it has to do with animal rights as it does with consideration. If I were to kill an animal for survival I would do so with as much respect as I could manage; there is a way for this to be done even remotely in a humane manor. I would hate for my cat to run out into the street and suffer this fate, to be skinned or boiled alive. Hate isn't even strong enough of a word; I'm sure the emotion I'm looking for has no true word or definition.

There is a way to keep from starving to death and not be ignorant at the same time. I can't believe it is part of their "culture" to torture animals in the process of sustaining a meal. It is not trying to tell them what they can eat; it's education on how to pursue the main goal, which is eating.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by emonti8384

I'm not sure how much of it has to do with animal rights as it does with consideration. If I were to kill an animal for survival I would do so with as much respect as I could manage; there is a way for this to be done even remotely in a humane manor.

And again, that is a cultural issue, not a factual one. You are from a culture that values the "feelings" of cats and dogs, even to the point of deluding yourselves that they have human-like thoughts and consciousness. Other cultures-- don't. Do you eat lobster or crayfish or oysters or clams? They aren't killed "humanely and with respect", even in the US. They are simply dropped into boiling water, fully alive. It isn't thought of as "torture"-- their pain or emotional state is simply utterly irrelevant. The main difference is that you have a subjective emotional attachment to dogs and cats that you lack for invertebrates (which are entirely as capable of feeling pain) and a false idea that animals in some way think like you do.

[emonti8384]

As a matter of fact I do not eat fish, shellfish, chicken, pork, or beef. I do not delude myself into thinking my cats have human like thoughts-in fact that is the silliest thing I have ever heard, lol. I do not believe that deer I am going to eat connected with me on some spiritual "human-like" level before I shot it and killed it and ate it for dinner. But I'm not going to bash it in it's face and proceed to peel off his skin and throw him in a pool of boiling water just because I can skin and cook it that way. I don't believe it is cultural; I believe it is ignorance, as in lack of knowledge ignorant. There is a different method to obtain the same goals that gives animals a moment of peace and also feeds you. I had a Doberman for 15 years, best dog I ever had. When he got too old to walk and was clearly in pain and unhappy I killed him. I do not believe any creature should suffer needlessly.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by emonti8384

As a matter of fact I do not eat fish, shellfish, chicken, pork, or beef. I do not delude myself into thinking my cats have human like thoughts-in fact that is the silliest thing I have ever heard, lol. I do not believe that deer I am going to eat connected with me on some spiritual "human-like" level before I shot it and killed it and ate it for dinner. But I'm not going to bash it in it's face and proceed to peel off his skin and throw him in a pool of boiling water just because I can skin and cook it that way. I don't believe it is cultural; I believe it is ignorance, as in lack of knowledge ignorant. There is a different method to obtain the same goals that gives animals a moment of peace and also feeds you. I had a Doberman for 15 years, best dog I ever had. When he got too old to walk and was clearly in pain and unhappy I killed him. I do not believe any creature should suffer needlessly.

You killed your own dog or you had your dog put down? If it was the former, I don't know how you did it, I think I'd rather kill myself than kill a dog - Sure it's anthropomorphising an animal, but screw that, I loved my dog when I was a kid, even if it didn't think like me or all the human qualities it had were assigned by me. I doubt I could eat deer either, or rabbits or anything really that has been immortalised in entertainment (except the mighty Sharktopus! Which is all evil and MUST BE DESTROYED AT ALL COSTS!)

KILL, KILL SHARKTOPUS!

[emonti8384]

Lol, that is one nasty looking guy! I killed my own dog. I respect creatures that have been around as long as man; I respected Max, best dog I've ever had. I'll never find another one like him, in fact I doubt I will even try. If lettuce screamed everytime I pulled it I'd find a way to deal the blow efficiently and quickly.

[rmm200]

When you start slamming the US and the UK based on nothing more than leftest lies - it is really time to shut this thread down. Lets get back to books...

Robert

[emonti8384]

Sorry! I watched that video, it's going to haunt me! This lounge is also dedicated to things other than books, Robert....

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by rmm200

When you start slamming the US and the UK based on nothing more than leftest lies - it is really time to shut this thread down. Lets get back to books...

Robert

I'm slamming all nations and all governments, left, right and centre. None have a clean slate when it comes to human and animal abuse. All have let tainted foods, medicines and the rights of citizens slip by when monetary gain or power can be achieved by looking the other way. It's the nature of the beast, that's all. Using the word 'leftist' singles you out as being on the 'right' of politics, whereas I didn't mention any political leaning at all in my statements (all factual by the by). Also, if you're petitioning for threads to be locked on the basis of sweeping statements about the political leanings of those who post, or the content of those posts, you might want to spell check a little beforehand. Leftist, not leftest.

EDIT: Full disclosure, I lean heavily towards anarcho-socialism in my politics, with maybe some anarcho-syndicalism thrown in for good measure.

[emonti8384]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

I'm slamming all nations and all governments, left, right and centre. None have a clean slate when it comes to human and animal abuse. All have let tainted foods, medicines and the rights of citizens slip by when monetary gain or power can be achieved by looking the other way. It's the nature of the beast, that's all. Using the word 'leftist' singles you out as being on the 'right' of politics, whereas I didn't mention any political leaning at all in my statements (all factual by the by). Also, if you're petitioning for threads to be locked on the basis of sweeping statements about the political leanings of those who post, or the content of those posts, you might want to spell check a little beforehand. Leftist, not leftest.

EDIT: Full disclosure, I lean heavily towards anarcho-socialism in my politics, with maybe some anarcho-syndicalism thrown in for good measure.

Nicely said

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by emonti8384

Sorry! I watched that video, it's going to haunt me! This lounge is also dedicated to things other than books, Robert....

There's a documentary called Food, Inc that opened my eyes to the horrible food industry in the US (and by extension, I assume the UK). What we're eating now is not food any more, it's some kind of corn-based hybrid of food and all to fill the pockets of a few filthy rich corporate companies sitting at the top of the pyramid.

[emonti8384]

It's sad how money rules over priciples, morals, judgement and character. Too bad we can't go back into a much simpler time (with our ereaders )

[recluse]

I believe that the use of "Left" in this case is not in reference to a political position other than "Right". It is, more accurately, the past tense of the word "Leave", as in "You've left your common sense somewhere. Go find it. NOW." See, no politics involved.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by emonti8384

It's sad how money rules over priciples, morals, judgement and character. Too bad we can't go back into a much simpler time (with our ereaders )

In those "much simpler times" of a century ago-- before refrigeration, before artificial fabrics, before factory farming-- everyone in every country treated animals the way China (and most other non-hyperindustrial areas of the world) does now and almost nobody was crying over the emotions of their food. Money is what makes the lucky minority of the world able to say "let them eat cake" about the poor people of the world. You have a very skewed perception of history.

(Edit to add-- except in the countries that believe in reincarnation-- there, they treated the animals well and people like garbage.)

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by emonti8384

I believe it is ignorance, as in lack of knowledge ignorant.

Ignorance of what, exactly? Do you think they aren't aware that what happens is painful for the animal? Do you really think that if you went over there and said to them "Hey, that hurts, you know!" they would say "Really? That never crossed my mind, I'll stop now!" No, it is not about "ignorance"-- it is about the culture not placing a personal value in the emotional state of animals, while yours does. And you aren't going to change their values any more than they are going to change yours.