Funny I don't feel like a criminal

[Blackguard]

Of course, this entire thread is a bit pointless. The exact same copy (amazon --> DRM stripped --> multiple formats) was available on IRC on the day it was released, like most popular books. It's a shitty book, no surprise since they found it buried in his harddrive.

[Tattncat]

Dmaul, you mean like nook does?

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by HarryT

What makes you think you're doing anything wrong, Alex? I certainly see nothing wrong in your very sensible backup procedures. This thread is actually about the rights or wrongs of giving copies of eBooks to other people. You aren't doing that.

Yep, it's only wrong because of stupid DRM and related laws.

You won't find many--even staunch copyright supporters--who think what he's doing is wrong. If one buys a file they should be able to put it on all their devices, have a back up they'll be able to restore with no issues etc.

Issues start to arise when you give away copies while keeping your own--and even then some of that is really ok as people were lending paper books before etc. And since most people only read most books once, it doesn't really matter if the OPs mom has a copy and he still has a copy as for most books with most people neither will read it again anyway so there's no lost sell.

So really it's only an issue when a person is uploading the files to the darknets, or giving it to a ton of people they know vs. letting a few close friends have it (like they let a few people borrow a paper book in turn in the past) etc.

[guyanonymous]

So dmaul - where is the point drawn? Giving it to one person? 2? 3? 10?

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by guyanonymous

So dmaul - where is the point drawn? Giving it to one person? 2? 3? 10?

I think it will largely have to be drawn to putting it on torrents and other file sharing sites for anyone to grab.

I mean think of a paper book. Nothing it stopping you from loaning it to everyone you know over a year or two as you loan it out and get it back and loan it to someone else etc.

And that's perfectly legal, so it's hard to not think people should be able to do the same with an e-book they bought.

Maybe we'll see a unified e-book format down the road, with a unified DRM scheme that allows lending to one person at a time (like the Nook), giving e-books away permanently etc.

But unless that happens, there won't be much they can do to stop people from giving/loaning copies to friends and family. Best that can be done is focus on the darknets where one copy can get to hundreds or thousands of people, who then put their illegal copy up on their own torrents etc.

[angelad]

The real criminals are the Drm makers. What a stupid little annoyance for the consumer.

[guyanonymous]

I agree with you about the need to be able to lend/share your books with friends and families. And give away your ebooks. And sell your ebooks. (When you're done with them).

From what you're saying though, it would be ok to setup a private torrent site for family and friends to share your books (and other material)...or am I wrong here?

Stuff like this isn't clearly defined and inhabits the huge 'grey-zone' that copyright laws have left us with. At what point does your sharing with one or two friends/family become an issue? I think that's what I'm more curious about. We all define that differently. Some with morals. Some with laws. Alas, neither are consistently interpreted, applied, supported or accepted.

I take it you are supportive of DRM?

p.s., I'm not trying to pick on you, your comments just raised some thoughts in my mind that I'm interested in teasing out and thinking through. Several on mobileread have argued black/white positions, while I see the whole area as murky, frustrating grey.

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by guyanonymous

From what you're saying though, it would be ok to setup a private torrent site for family and friends to share your books (and other material)...or am I wrong here?

No, I'd say any of that type of file sharing is wrong when it's put up on the net etc. as that's very different than loaning paper books etc.

But it's a tricky thing to deal with, and really a DRM scheme that allows loaning etc. may be the way to go.

But I'm not huge on that either. MP3s get by without DRM. You're never going to stop someone from giving files to friends, just like they can never stop loaning of books, burning of CDs etc.

Best they can do is work to criminalize uploading (maybe downloading but I'm starting to waver on that from discussions here) copyrighted files from the internet. There's a lot more lost sales there than people giving stuff to their friends etc. I'd think, and it's easier to track and enforce.

I take it you are supportive of DRM?

Not really, and definitely not in it's current form. I could live with DRM if it allowed the owner to put it on all their machines, there were ways to sell e-books, loan them etc.

But even then that really does nothing to solve the problem. Pirates will just strip DRM, and thus your back where we are now of having DRM that only annoys legit users and does nothing to stop piracy.

[guyanonymous]

Fair enough - and, like you, my views on uploading/downloading/copyright etc. have been modified, tweaked, and clarified through discussions on here. I appreciate the different views - even when I disagree with them completely - when they are explained and supported (and not just I'm right and you're wrong).

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by darylbrayman

Last week I purchased Michael Crichton's newest book, Pirate Latitudes. Excellent book by the way. I read the book. I removed the book from my reader. Then I stripped the DRM and emailed the book to my mother. I am now a criminal. I didn't post the book onto the darknet. There is only one copy floating around, it is currently in my mothers possession. Unlike a physical copy it will probably end there as not enough of our friends and family have ebook readers (I'm working on that). As the title say's "Funny, I don't feel like a criminal".

See, what you should do is buy several ereaders, and download the file only to one of them. Then when you want to lend the book to your mother, you give her the ereader it's on.

Then you won't be a criminal.

You will, however, be a fool.

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Best they can do is work to criminalize uploading (maybe downloading but I'm starting to waver on that from discussions here) copyrighted files from the internet. There's a lot more lost sales there than people giving stuff to their friends etc. I'd think, and it's easier to track and enforce.

It seems clear to me that people who are unwilling to pay for a book when they can get a pirate version are most likely unwilling to pay for that book when they cannot get a pirate version. It also seems to me that the key to selling books is to make it easy for the customer to buy the book, and that customers will pay extra for convenience. And finally, it seems to me that when businesses treat their customers fairly, their customers treat them back the same way.

So when I put all this together, I think that The Lost Pirate Sale is an illusion.

But that's just an opinion. All I ever see on this is opinion. Has anyone ever seen a serious study of the matter?

[AlexBell]

Originally Posted by HarryT

What makes you think you're doing anything wrong, Alex? I certainly see nothing wrong in your very sensible backup procedures. This thread is actually about the rights or wrongs of giving copies of eBooks to other people. You aren't doing that.

I thought you were agin removing DRM and agin making copies.

Suppose I did erase every copy of an ebook but one that I haven't read, gave that copy to a friend, and erased the copy on my computer. The publisher, vendor, and author still have not had any harm done to them. Would you object? Suppose I had glanced at it before completely removing it from my computer after deciding I didn't like it; would you object?

I guess I'm trying to find where the limits are.

Regards, Alex

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by AlexBell

I thought you were agin removing DRM and agin making copies.

Heavens no. I see absolutely nothing wrong with removing DRM for personal use. I'm afraid I do think it's wrong to give an eBook to someone else, but that's purely my personal opinion - everyone has to make up their own mind about the rights or wrongs of it.

[GhostHawk]

Ding Ding Ding The WINNER!

Originally Posted by Harmon

It seems clear to me that people who are unwilling to pay for a book when they can get a pirate version are most likely unwilling to pay for that book when they cannot get a pirate version. It also seems to me that the key to selling books is to make it easy for the customer to buy the book, and that customers will pay extra for convenience. And finally, it seems to me that when businesses treat their customers fairly, their customers treat them back the same way.

So when I put all this together, I think that The Lost Pirate Sale is an illusion.

But that's just an opinion. All I ever see on this is opinion. Has anyone ever seen a serious study of the matter?

There will be no real numbers for this issue as that is data that is pretty much impossible to come up with.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Harmon

.... And finally, it seems to me that when businesses treat their customers fairly, their customers treat them back the same way.
....

And therein lies the problem. Businesses (corporations) increasingly don't give a rat's ass about customers, they only care about the ROI to investors. If they can f**K the customer and increase the ROI they will. It is only when the "treating the customer right" happens to coincide explicitly and measurably with ROI that they will "implement it."