which format will win?

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Now take a look at this which is ePub and it looks better then all three of your samples.

This shows that ePub can do it if you bother to do it.

MathML or SVG, for reference?

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

MathML or SVG, for reference?

Both actually. Mostly MathML with just the graph being SVG. And well spotted BTW.

[frabjous]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Now take a look at this which is ePub and it looks better then all three of your samples.

No, it doesn't. First, notice that pair kerning is not used. Next, notice that it doesn't have f-series ligatures. Finally, it doesn't do end of line hyphenation. Notice that you've widened the line, which diminishes the effect of inconsistent whitespace created by lack of hyphenation. But there's no way I can use lines that long on my reader, at least not in portrait mode. But it in the right size for my reader (as my examples all were), and the problem would probably become more apparent. No footnotes either.

The only thing more impressive about it is that it uses a more complicated math example. But that's not the issue. Duplicating that in a PDF is still much easier.

I personally don't think that Computer/Latin Modern font isn't very good for most electronic displays, but font choice is a matter of taste.

But also, what are you using to render this? Not ADE, surely, nor the ePub renderer on a Sony 505, which won't do justified text.

How is the math done? SVG? MathML? If so, then it won't be supported by most renderers. Remember, my problem was never with the ePub format, but the renderers for it. If the renderers I had access to supported those things, I'd be fine with ePub. To repeat myself for the third time, I expect that I'll eventually prefer ePub to PDF, just not now.

(Maybe I could get something like that on my Sony if the entire thing were an SVG, but that's gotta be a lot of work. I wouldn't know how to do it without using PDF as an intermediary.)

Sort of getting back to the original thread question. I certainly hope EPUB becomes the standard. DRM is, somewhat, a separate issue. To me it seems DRM is currently being used for two purposes; one that makes total sense and one that doesn't. DRM used to assure protection of copyrights and to assure that authors and publishers get fairly compensated for distribution of their books, even in ebook format, I have no problem with. Used to allow ebook distributors to force people to use only the ebook viewer that the distributor sells doesn't.

It is easiest for me to illustrate with an example. We all have an ATF book. Mine is Seven Japanese Tales by Junchiro Tanizaki (English translation of course). My paperback copy has been read so many times over the years that the pages are falling out of the binding. So I have decided to buy it in ebook format.

Now the original in Japanese is I am sure long out of copyright, but the English translation that has been published is still under copyright. So I would have no problem paying a reasonable price for the ebook version. I was in correspondence with Howard Hibbit, the man who did the translation, several years ago with some questions and he was very helpful. He deserves to be compensated with royalties for the effort of translation.

Owning a Sony reader my first thought was to search the Sony Store. No luck there. A general search of known ebook sources as well as a Google search revealed only one source—Amazon. And that in Amazon's proprietary format. The problem I see with Amazon's dominance in the book market is a vertical monopoly in the making. Want a less than common ebook title. You must buy it from Amazon. Want to view it on an ebook reader then buy the Kindle.

Now I will get Seven Japanese Tales in EPUB format with the ability to read it on my Sony Digital Edition, and on any other reader I might purchase in the future! I just would have preferred to do so in a 'strictly legit' fashion. That is why I hope EPUB becomes the universal format viewable on all ebook readers.

Sorry for being so long winded.

[drmathprog]

Originally Posted by frabjous

I'm a huge fan of LaTeX, and think it would be great of a rendering engine like LaTeX were used, but don't confuse the file format with the engine that renders it. There's nothing about the HTML format that prohibits getting output as nice as one gets from running latex on its mark-up language. ePub is not a wrapper around an "engine", but a wrapper around some mark-up code. If a wrapper were put around LaTeX code, that wouldn't be an engine either.

Consider for example, Prince XML -- which takes HTML and XHTML as input and creates a PDF, much like LaTeX takes its mark-up source and created DVI or PDF, and the resulting PDF uses end-of-line hyphens (in fact, using the TeX algorithm), ligatures, kerning. The fact that we don't get that from the ePub software on our readers isn't a fault of the ePub format, it's the fault of the software used to render it, which knock on wood, will get better in the future. And they can port as much of LaTeX's engine as they want. The differences in the mark-up languages are trivial. MathML isn't any worse that TeX as a mark-up language. If anything it's better (though slightly less humanly readable.)

I think LaTex was invented by Leslie Lamport. Donald Knuth invented Tex. They are, of course, intimately coupled.

[Shaggy]

There is no standard, and probably won't be one. You see lots of people with their own opinions on what is the best format, but the fact remains that there are many competing formats and no device/retailer supports them all.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Hamlet53

To me it seems DRM is currently being used for two purposes; one that makes total sense and one that doesn't. DRM used to assure protection of copyrights and to assure that authors and publishers get fairly compensated for distribution of their books, even in ebook format, I have no problem with. Used to allow ebook distributors to force people to use only the ebook viewer that the distributor sells doesn't.

DRM is useless for copy protection and preventing illegitimate uses of the content. That's just the reason they claim they use it in order to get people to accept it. The real thing DRM is meant for is controlling what their legitimate customers are allowed to do with the content. It's an attempt to strip what are otherwise legal consumer rights.

For example, DRM is much more effective at taking away fair use and first sale rights of legitimate customers than it is at preventing piracy.

[mbovenka]

Originally Posted by AlexBell

Perhaps other ePub readers can do them, but I'd still very much like to see these capabilities on my ECO Reader for ePub books.

Install OpenInkpot (it has its own forum here) on your EcoReader, which is a Hanlin V3 rebrand just like my BeBook, and you can do all of these things.

[frabjous]

Originally Posted by drmathprog

I think LaTex was invented by Leslie Lamport. Donald Knuth invented Tex. They are, of course, intimately coupled.

Did I say anything otherwise? I think someone else brought up Knuth. I didn't.

Strictly speaking, LaTeX is an extension to TeX that consists of a set of macros that make it easier to use, though TeX still does the typesetting. "Coupled" is too weak of a relation. LaTeX is built on top of TeX, and many if not most of the algorithms directly related to typesetting are part of plain TeX. Whether or not the LaTeX macros would be involved if the TeX engine were modified to handle ePub source mark-up, I don't know, and doubt it matters much.

[jimmyrules712]

So I just read through this entire thread and I just have a couple of comments.

#1) Despite the fact that there seems to be a couple of heated arguments I love seeing all of the passion you guys have for ebooks haha

#2)No matter what stance you have on whatever issue you're debating one thing everyone here should be able to agree on is that the publishers (and maybe to some extent the device manufacturers and ebook sellers) are hurting / keeping this market from reaching it's potential by confusing and pissing everyone off with a dozen incompatible formats and DRMs. Honestly I don't care what the standard becomes as long as we get to one soon...

I can deal with it because I'm technologically savvy enough to stirp DRM and convert formats but for the average consumer it's hopeless.

And I understand why people feel like they can't make true backups of DRM'ed ebooks. It's because even if we have a copy of the file we don't feel like we truly have control/ownership of the thing we paid for, and some unthoughtful company out there could potentially remove (or through lack of action cause it to be removed) our ability to use it. With a non-DRMed standardized format we can have confidence that as long as we have a copy of that file we should be able to use it. Period.

[clockworkzombie]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Backing up has nothing whatsoever to do with being able to use it on some future device you might own in 10 years time. It really doesn't help anyone to try to conflate these two entirely separate topics.

Absolutely incorrect.


I work with computers and data recovery is a major issue. There is no point in having a backup if, at the point it is needed, you cannot use the files you wish to recover.


Backing up is disaster recovery. If you are prudent you will replace your hard drive every couple of years and clone the data to the new drive. Open DRM free formats are excellent as there is nothing stopping you from opening the file when you need to do it.


Technology changes all the time and your data needs to be in a format that will allow it to change too.

[Ben Thornton]

I bought a load of audible content that I can't now use despite having all the 1s and 0s because it was tied to a device and account that isn't easily available to me. Despite having back-ups, I cannot restore; so I think it reasonable to say that DRM is absolutely related to the ability to make a usable backup.

OT, I think that epub is likely to become the mp3 of the ebook world - the most likely to be supported format. That didn't stop AAC, OGG, that Microsoft one, FLAC etc.

Originally Posted by drmathprog

I think LaTex was invented by Leslie Lamport. Donald Knuth invented Tex. They are, of course, intimately coupled.

But is there any relationship between LaTex and Tex?

[dmaul1114]

I think eventually DRM will die off like it did for music, then format will be pretty moot as they can all be converted easily.

For straight text--which is all I use e-books for currently, I really couldn't care less about format. I'm not a typesetter etc., text is text to me. I use .mobi now since I have a Kindle, but have no loyalty to the .mobi format or dislike of it and wish they'd switch to .epub etc. Text is text to me.

[cmdahler]

Originally Posted by Ben Thornton

But is there any relationship between LaTex and Tex?

LaTeX is basically a big set of TeX macros designed to make using TeX easier. If you're familiar with computer programming, TeX is like Assembly language, and LaTeX is like C or Pascal.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by clockworkzombie

Absolutely incorrect.


I work with computers and data recovery is a major issue. There is no point in having a backup if, at the point it is needed, you cannot use the files you wish to recover.

..

Uh no. In this context we are not talking about restoring a computer, but simply being to make a backup copy of a file. DRM does not interfere with or prevent that from happening.