What are your views on illegal copying?

[GhostHawk]

You want an honest answer Kazbates, I'll give you one.

If I go to the nearest convenience store, and steal a candy bar, the candy bar is gone.

If on the other hand, I am smart enough, savvy enough, determined enough to go out and find an ebook that I want to read, and download it. The ebook is still out there. I have taken nothing. You can not lose what you never had. So the publisher did not lose a sale. The author did not lose royalty's. And I didn't lose any sleep over it.

To look at it another way.
Project Gutenberg has an abundance of books in their collection.
Granted different country's view copyright differently. Have different laws depending on location. So its ok to download books from "this" web site, because the author died 60 years ago. And his "right" to control those ideas is gone.
But its "Not" ok to download books from another web site, because that author is still alive, or just died?

I've bought some Dick Francis Hardcovers in my day, he's gotten what he's going to get from me. He's got I am sure a very impressive place in the Cayman Islands.

I'm freezing my butt off in Fargo ND, eating pasta because its all we can afford, but I'm supposed to send him money (or his son) Because I want to reread his books in Ebook format? The !#@$ you say.

I'm not taking something from anyone, that they have. The worst you can say, is that they are losing sales/royalty's. Which in my case is really not true. Not in my current situation. So why should I care?

After all there are ohhh so many of you folks who wouldn't DREAM of doing what I do who will be glad to pay their royaltys. So those authors really are not starving for the most part.

Now, am I advocating that you all turn pirate, absolutely not.
Am I advocating that perhaps copyright law is due for a total makeover. You betcha.
And until they make copyright law fair and "reasonable" and ebook prices "Reasonable" do I feel "empowered" to do all in my power to encourage that change. Yep.

And no I don't feel like its stealing. Because you can't lose what you never had.

Now, turn the coin over. Do you see me pirating books from Baen Authors.
Very very seldom, because they are the one publisher already giving me a fair shake.
I find one now and then slipped into some collection. But I don't go looking for them.

So if I did come into money, and was going to buy books who would I buy?
Hint, ain't going to be Tor.

[weatherwax]

Originally Posted by Ben Thornton

4. The author is dead (~30%)


Analysis

I was surprised at the level of support for the income of dead people. Two thirds didn't check this as a fair reason to take a copy. Perhaps we should make up some bumper stickers that say "Illegal copying of dead authors' works is a grave crime".

Here you might want to take into account how long the author has been dead. He/she might have died young and the royalities are needed to support their families. Or they died before the publisher had a chance to get even on their investments.
In that way 50 years are not unreasonable, the children would be able to take care of them selves and it's unlikely that their would be a widow/er depending on that income.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by GhostHawk

You want an honest answer Kazbates, I'll give you one.

If I go to the nearest convenience store, and steal a candy bar, the candy bar is gone.

If on the other hand, I am smart enough, savvy enough, determined enough to go out and find an ebook that I want to read, and download it. The ebook is still out there. I have taken nothing.....

NO! Absolutely WRONG. You are stealing. Assuming it is not in the public domain you DO NOT have permission to take the book . And it's irrelevant whether it's a physical item or a copy, it's wrong, it's illegal, it's theft. End of story.

P.S. you can make whatever excuses you want about income levels and disadvantages and weather to justify your illegal behavior, but that doesn't change the facts.

[deltop]

Originally Posted by kennyc

NO! Absolutely WRONG. You are stealing. Assuming it is not in the public domain you DO NOT have permission to take the book . And it's irrelevant whether it's a physical item or a copy, it's wrong, it's illegal, it's theft. End of story.

And yet the law disagrees with you. Which is why it's classed as copyright infringement and not theft.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by deltop

And yet the law disagrees with you. Which is why it's classed as copyright infringement and not theft.

You miss the entire point.

[Kevin2960]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

In the UK it's quite common these days to see parents giving their children food off the shelves in supermarkets without paying for it. The children eat the stuff as they wander round, and the supermarkets don't seem to care.

'Stealing' is a part of our culture now.

Exactly which is why I Still say Theft is Theft, letting it slide, glossing over it, dressing it up differently are the REASON our society is as it now is, And there may not be a way back to older values and better times!

[deltop]

Originally Posted by kennyc

You miss the entire point.

I get your point, you believe it's morally wrong and illegal (which it is) but by repeatedly calling it something which it isn't, ie. theft, your not helping your cause. People on this forum understand the difference between the loss of a physical item and the taking of a digital copy. This is why under the law it's also called something different and therefore treated differently.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by kazbates

I've been thinking about this quite a bit since I first saw the statement and I have a question, "Why do people who pirate books feel that it is within your "right" to do so?" Why do you believe that you are so deserving of something that you take it without giving compensation to the true owners?

Your mistake is believing that there exist a true owner. Intellectual property does not work the same way as physical property. Copyright is a government enforced monopol for distribution and nothing natural. The goal is to make more things available in the public domain.

By talking about true owner and theft you leading the thoughts in the wrong direction. Which is of course why lobby organisations use these terms in the way they do for their own propaganda goals.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by deltop

I get your point, you believe it's morally wrong and illegal (which it is) but by repeatedly calling it something which it isn't, ie. theft, your not helping your cause. People on this forum understand the difference between the loss of a physical item and the taking of a digital copy. This is why under the law it's also called something different and therefore treated differently.

Yes I am. You say this every time in every thread and since I've been saying it I've seen a few more come out and agree with it. We're getting there.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by tompe

....Copyright is a government enforced monopol for distribution and nothing natural. The goal is to make more things available in the public domain.
.....

No. It is protection for the creator which is intended to encourage that said creator to share his work with the public while protecting his rights.

That creator is the OWNER by definition of the creative work regardless of form.

[kennyc]

Gawd, see, you guys have got me going again.....

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by Kevin2960

Exactly which is why I Still say Theft is Theft, letting it slide, glossing over it, dressing it up differently are the REASON our society is as it now is, And there may not be a way back to older values and better times!

It's also theft when money is taken from me to give to authors and publishers for books I don't want to read.
(That's how the UK public library system works.)

What goes around comes around.

[GhostHawk]

To be brutally honest kenny, it doesn't take much.

Truly was not my intention.
But, you are wrong.

However after reading this thread, and rethinking what I said, and why I said it, a lightbulb went off.

This country is founded on the premise that you work hard, scrimp and save, and you can get ahead. You can have the finer things in life. The problem is that you see someone getting something for free, that you worked for. And cry foul, knee jerk reaction.

Through no fault of my own, I am unable to live that dream. I am unable to go out and work. Although disabled, I was denied Disability. So I go out and find a way to get for free what your spending hard earned dollars for. And that bugs the living crap out of you. And thats why you cry theft, You feel like I'm stealing something of yours.

You don't see that in my own way I've invested a lot of time, money, computers etc to learn how to get that ebook. All you see is that I'm getting something without having to pay for it.

Have you ever driven a car without current state tabs on it?
Very similar situation in many respects. States are "taxing" you for the right to drive a car. For using those roads, and bridges that they built with "your" tax dollars.
So say you drive your car for 2 or 3 months without tabs. Yes, you might get caught, and have to pay a fine, plus prove that you've bought the tabs.

Now say I figured out how to "copy" those tabs. So now I won't get caught, but I'm not paying that tax. Its not theft. Granted the state loses my fee. But its not hurting anyone else. In the big scheme of things, its a drop in the bucket.

Is it wrong? Well thats debateable. Is it wrong to speed? Thats against the law also, yet people do it all the time. Is it wrong to cook the books so you can cheat on your taxes? Thats done all the time also, and adds up to a lot more than my minor little tabs tax cheat.

The point is, if its priced fairly, the average person will find it easier, both on their pocketbook, and on the conscience, to pay for it. Piracy will go down.

But every time you cry THEFT, or jack the price up beyond our means.
Your encouraging me to go do it some more.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by GhostHawk

......

This country is founded on the premise that you work hard, scrimp and save, and you can get ahead. You can have the finer things in life. The problem is that you see someone getting something for free, that you worked for. And cry foul, knee jerk reaction.

Through no fault of my own, I am unable to live that dream. I am unable to go out and work. Although disabled, I was denied Disability.


So I go out and find a way to get for free what your spending hard earned dollars for. And that bugs the living crap out of you. And thats why you cry theft, You feel like I'm stealing something of yours.
....

But every time you cry THEFT, or jack the price up beyond our means.
Your encouraging me to go do it some more.

I'm going to say it once more. You make any excuse you want, but that doesn't make it right, make it legal or just. I have nothing against you or your condition (whatever it is -- but clearly if you were denied disability someone thinks you may not be as disabled as you think), but that has nothing at all to do with my position.

If everyone used your logic as stated above then it would be perfectly okay for anyone that makes little money to steal food and shelter and transportation. Are you encouraging and supporting that as well. Do you steal from the grocery store as you alluded to above? or is is just ebooks you steal?

Regardless, it changes nothing. If you take something that doesn't belong to you, you are a thief whether it's a physical item, digital, or intellectual property.

[troymc]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

It's also theft when money is taken from me to give to authors and publishers for books I don't want to read.
(That's how the UK public library system works.)

What goes around comes around.

I agree whole-heartedly.

And it's also then "theft" when works which were originally scheduled to enter the public domain get "grandfathered" simply to line the pockets of megacorp publishers & greedy families. This is even closer to the definition of "theft" since the public domain does lose something which had been promised to it.

Here's a perfect example:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/19/bo...pagewanted=all

It's an amazing double-standard -- individuals are expected to act honestly/legally/morally while they're being fleeced by amoral corporations & immoral copyright owners who seemingly have no shame.


Troy