What are your views on illegal copying? - Page 2

kennyc · 02-19-2010, 07:46 AM

Nice Tull quote Moejoe! Love that song.

pietvo · 02-19-2010, 07:58 AM

In my country making a photocopy of a book is allowed if the book is no longer for sale, and if it is only for private, non-commercial use. Otherwise only a few pages may be copied. You may have someone else do the copying for you.

On the other hand making a digital copy is allowed for private, non-commercial use, regardless of the availability. But you must make the copy yourself, you can't let another person or a service do it.

In neither case you are allowed to give the copies away or sell them.

Please note: IANAL. I am still trying to read up the legal literature on this subject.

Krystian Galaj · 02-19-2010, 08:03 AM

It is ok to have a book for your personal use if you paid the author for it, or if there's no chance the author will create more books. It's a shame some authors who could have a paypal donation button on their sites don't :/

tompe · 02-19-2010, 08:31 AM

The poll seems to assume a rights based moral or some rule based system. I would say that it depends on the situation and the book. It is OK if it is an action that tries to maximize the utility (defined in whatever way you like to define it). But that is because I like consequence ethics systems.

EowynCarter · 02-19-2010, 08:43 AM

I'm surprised at how many consider "I already own the book" above "book not availible as e-book".

Lemurion · 02-19-2010, 08:43 AM

Interesting poll questions.

One option I don't see is "It's OK to copy a book so that I can use my already paid-for electronic version on a different (or incompatible) device." (For example stripping DRM so I can put a Kindle book on my Sony). I think that's an important omission because very few people will be opposed to that and so it helps show that there really is a continuum and that very few people are going to be always on one side or the other.

I also used to pirate books that I already owned when there was no legally available electronic copy. Though in many cases I later bought electronic editions when they became available.

Greg Anos · 02-19-2010, 08:45 AM

What about dead people?

I think they can't hold up the societal bargain, because they'll never create again....

(At least on this plane.)

GhostHawk · 02-19-2010, 09:00 AM

I could easily have answered any of the choices with the exception of the very top answer. Different situations, different choices.

Ohh and Kenny will you just accept the fact that its not the same as stealing a painting!
After all, how many of your biggest wealthiest customers have works of art that are stolen, or copied without permission of the artist in their collections?

Do you refuse to sell to them?

Would the world be a better place if only a handfull of very rich people had ever seen the Mona Lisa?

Every one of those pictures and prints of the Mona Lisa are by your definition theft.

Even though the original hangs in splendor, nothing has been taken from it. No one has lost it, but according to you its theft. Well thankfully you don't make the definitions.

If its in public domain in Canada, and I can download it directly to my computer, why NOT copy it? The issue then becomes one of "who's rules" and when that happens I say "My rules trump your rules".

Does that make me a pirate, no doubt about it.
If I could afford to buy it, at a reasonable price I probably would.

But should I be told I can't read this book because we didn't make enough money last year? It is to laugh. Seriously!

Ohhh and before you look down your nose at me. Wait till you've been disabled, unable to work for 10 years with virtually zero income. Wait till you've had to subsist on under 20k a year for 2 people, 4 cats and 2 birds. Walk a mile in my shoes before you give me that holier than thou stare.

Yes I'm a pirate, but not always by choice.

Ben Thornton · 02-19-2010, 09:14 AM

I wish I could edit the title to say "tick ALL options that apply" because the idea wasn't to pick one, as I think some people have, but to check all the statements that people thought were reasonable.

dsvick · 02-19-2010, 09:53 AM

If you do not get the right to make a copy through legal means then copying it is wrong. Case closed, no discussion, it is cut and dried - if it is not legal to do something and you do it then it is wrong.

Ghosthawk, regardless of whether you think it is fair, or it is your right, or because you can't afford it, or for whatever reason you use to justify your action it is still wrong. Using your justification we can all do whatever we want to simply because we can think of a, to us, logical reason. I did not make enough money last year to afford a 60 inch flat screen tv, but I really want one so I'm just going to take one. How is that even remotely "not wrong"?

Yes, books are not flat panel televisions, nor are they famous paintings but they are still a good that someone spent time and effort in the creation of and deserves compensation for the use of.

Bremen Cole · 02-19-2010, 10:07 AM

GhostHawk said "Ohhh and before you look down your nose at me. Wait till you've been disabled, unable to work for 10 years with virtually zero income. Wait till you've had to subsist on under 20k a year for 2 people, 4 cats and 2 birds. Walk a mile in my shoes before you give me that holier than thou stare.

Yes I'm a pirate, but not always by choice."

I have no stone to throw at you GhostHawk. Though our Attorney General here in the US is seeking to "protect" corporations from people like you, it is one of many points that I simply disagree with our Federal Government. Peace to you.....

Sparrow · 02-19-2010, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsvick

...if it is not legal to do something and you do it then it is wrong.

That is where my opinion differs.

Moejoe · 02-19-2010, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsvick

If you do not get the right to make a copy through legal means then copying it is wrong. Case closed, no discussion, it is cut and dried - if it is not legal to do something and you do it then it is wrong.

Sorry, case isn't closed. What you are describing is an 'unlawful' act, whether it is morally wrong or right is up for debate. And lets not get into what is right or wrong either, there's plenty of laws that are wrong, plenty. Is it wrong for a man and a man or a woman and a woman to be married? Or is it merely unlawful? Is it wrong or merely unlawful to smoke marijuana?

Quote:

Ghosthawk, regardless of whether you think it is fair, or it is your right, or because you can't afford it, or for whatever reason you use to justify your action it is still wrong. Using your justification we can all do whatever we want to simply because we can think of a, to us, logical reason. I did not make enough money last year to afford a 60 inch flat screen tv, but I really want one so I'm just going to take one. How is that even remotely "not wrong"?

Yes, books are not flat panel televisions, nor are they famous paintings but they are still a good that someone spent time and effort in the creation of and deserves compensation for the use of.

No, they don't 'deserve' anything. They can try for monetary compensation by the selling of their goods or services, but they do not 'deserve' anything. If even a fraction of a percentile of all you 'piracy is wrong, its hurting the artists' Johnnies were actually to point your ire towards the real criminals, this debate would have been over a long time ago. But, no, you go on paying the publishers over and over again knowing full well that the author only gets cents on the dollar. You pay into a system that routinely screws authors over, that puts authors at the bottom of the pile. Most of them are making less than minimum wage, but you'd rather shout and ball at somebody downloading a book or two. Hypocrites the lot of you.

Elfwreck · 02-19-2010, 10:41 AM

I'm unclear on what's meant by "illegal copying." What's legal and what's not, in regards to digital files and ebooks, is not clear and obvious (or we wouldn't have so much debate about it), and what you mean by "copying" is also not clear.

AFAIK, it's legal for me to copy a book I own for my personal use. I've chopped, scanned & OCR'd several print books that I own. Distributing the copy is not legal, although the legality of sharing--if I have a way to remove my copy at the same time--is untested.

At least one serious category is missing--books that *would* be in the public domain, if PD hadn't been retroactively extended. I feel no guilt for copying or sharing content that was published under laws that indicated it would be freely available for public use by now. (And I believe that those extensions haven't been directly challenged in court, which means that such copying may-or-may-not be illegal.)

Ben Thornton · 02-19-2010, 10:42 AM

Rather than get into debates about what should be right and wrong, surely it is enough to know that laws change depending on where (and when) you live, to reject the idea that "if it is not legal to do something and you do it then it is wrong".

View Poll Results: What are your views on illegal copying?
All illegal copying of books is wrong	43	13.78%
It's OK to copy a book that is Public Domain in a different country	134	42.95%
It's OK to copy a book if I bought it new in print (I've paid the author)	172	55.13%
It's OK to copy a book if I own it in print (I own a paid-up copy)	181	58.01%
It's OK to copy a book that is not published electronically (I can't buy it)	126	40.38%
It's OK to copy a book that is not published in my country (I can't buy it here)	125	40.06%
It's OK to copy a book if the author is dead	79	25.32%
It's OK to copy a book if I think that the author is rich	19	6.09%
It's OK to copy a book from mainstream publishers	17	5.45%
It's always OK to copy (information wants to be free)	61	19.55%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 312. You may not vote on this poll

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02-19-2010, 07:46 AM	#16
kennyc The Dank Side of the Moon Posts: 35,903 Karma: 119230421 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Denver, CO Device: Kindle2; Kindle Fire	Nice Tull quote Moejoe! Love that song.

02-19-2010, 07:58 AM	#17
pietvo Reader Posts: 520 Karma: 24612 Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Utrecht, NL Device: Kobo Aura 2, iPhone, iPad	In my country making a photocopy of a book is allowed if the book is no longer for sale, and if it is only for private, non-commercial use. Otherwise only a few pages may be copied. You may have someone else do the copying for you. On the other hand making a digital copy is allowed for private, non-commercial use, regardless of the availability. But you must make the copy yourself, you can't let another person or a service do it. In neither case you are allowed to give the copies away or sell them. Please note: IANAL. I am still trying to read up the legal literature on this subject.

02-19-2010, 08:03 AM	#18
Krystian Galaj Guru Posts: 820 Karma: 11012 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Warsaw, Poland Device: Bookeen Cybook	It is ok to have a book for your personal use if you paid the author for it, or if there's no chance the author will create more books. It's a shame some authors who could have a paypal donation button on their sites don't :/

02-19-2010, 08:31 AM	#19
tompe Grand Sorcerer Posts: 7,452 Karma: 7185064 Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Linköpng, Sweden Device: Kindle Voyage, Nexus 5, Kindle PW	The poll seems to assume a rights based moral or some rule based system. I would say that it depends on the situation and the book. It is OK if it is an action that tries to maximize the utility (defined in whatever way you like to define it). But that is because I like consequence ethics systems.

02-19-2010, 08:43 AM	#20
EowynCarter Wizard Posts: 4,337 Karma: 4000000 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Paris Device: Cybooks; Sony PRS-T1	I'm surprised at how many consider "I already own the book" above "book not availible as e-book".

02-19-2010, 08:43 AM	#21
Lemurion eReader Posts: 2,750 Karma: 4968470 Join Date: Aug 2007 Device: Note 5; PW3; Nook HD+; ChuWi Hi12; iPad	Interesting poll questions. One option I don't see is "It's OK to copy a book so that I can use my already paid-for electronic version on a different (or incompatible) device." (For example stripping DRM so I can put a Kindle book on my Sony). I think that's an important omission because very few people will be opposed to that and so it helps show that there really is a continuum and that very few people are going to be always on one side or the other. I also used to pirate books that I already owned when there was no legally available electronic copy. Though in many cases I later bought electronic editions when they became available.

02-19-2010, 08:45 AM	#22
Greg Anos Grand Sorcerer Posts: 11,529 Karma: 37057604 Join Date: Jan 2008 Device: Pocketbook	What about dead people? I think they can't hold up the societal bargain, because they'll never create again.... (At least on this plane.)

02-19-2010, 09:00 AM	#23
GhostHawk Data Privateer! Posts: 586 Karma: 62887 Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Fargo ND Device: Ectaco Jetbook& Jetbook Lite	I could easily have answered any of the choices with the exception of the very top answer. Different situations, different choices. Ohh and Kenny will you just accept the fact that its not the same as stealing a painting! After all, how many of your biggest wealthiest customers have works of art that are stolen, or copied without permission of the artist in their collections? Do you refuse to sell to them? Would the world be a better place if only a handfull of very rich people had ever seen the Mona Lisa? Every one of those pictures and prints of the Mona Lisa are by your definition theft. Even though the original hangs in splendor, nothing has been taken from it. No one has lost it, but according to you its theft. Well thankfully you don't make the definitions. If its in public domain in Canada, and I can download it directly to my computer, why NOT copy it? The issue then becomes one of "who's rules" and when that happens I say "My rules trump your rules". Does that make me a pirate, no doubt about it. If I could afford to buy it, at a reasonable price I probably would. But should I be told I can't read this book because we didn't make enough money last year? It is to laugh. Seriously! Ohhh and before you look down your nose at me. Wait till you've been disabled, unable to work for 10 years with virtually zero income. Wait till you've had to subsist on under 20k a year for 2 people, 4 cats and 2 birds. Walk a mile in my shoes before you give me that holier than thou stare. Yes I'm a pirate, but not always by choice.

02-19-2010, 09:14 AM	#24
Ben Thornton Guru Posts: 900 Karma: 779635 Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: UK Device: Kindle 3, iPad 2 (but not for e-books)	I wish I could edit the title to say "tick ALL options that apply" because the idea wasn't to pick one, as I think some people have, but to check all the statements that people thought were reasonable.

02-19-2010, 09:53 AM	#25
dsvick Wizard Posts: 2,737 Karma: 635747 Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northeast Ohio, USA Device: PRS-900	If you do not get the right to make a copy through legal means then copying it is wrong. Case closed, no discussion, it is cut and dried - if it is not legal to do something and you do it then it is wrong. Ghosthawk, regardless of whether you think it is fair, or it is your right, or because you can't afford it, or for whatever reason you use to justify your action it is still wrong. Using your justification we can all do whatever we want to simply because we can think of a, to us, logical reason. I did not make enough money last year to afford a 60 inch flat screen tv, but I really want one so I'm just going to take one. How is that even remotely "not wrong"? Yes, books are not flat panel televisions, nor are they famous paintings but they are still a good that someone spent time and effort in the creation of and deserves compensation for the use of.

02-19-2010, 10:07 AM	#26
Bremen Cole Wizard Posts: 1,115 Karma: 2718 Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Texas Device: iPad	GhostHawk said "Ohhh and before you look down your nose at me. Wait till you've been disabled, unable to work for 10 years with virtually zero income. Wait till you've had to subsist on under 20k a year for 2 people, 4 cats and 2 birds. Walk a mile in my shoes before you give me that holier than thou stare. Yes I'm a pirate, but not always by choice." I have no stone to throw at you GhostHawk. Though our Attorney General here in the US is seeking to "protect" corporations from people like you, it is one of many points that I simply disagree with our Federal Government. Peace to you.....

02-19-2010, 10:41 AM	#29
Elfwreck Grand Sorcerer Posts: 5,187 Karma: 25133758 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: SF Bay Area, California, USA Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3 (Past: Kobo Mini, PEZ, PRS-505, Clié)	I'm unclear on what's meant by "illegal copying." What's legal and what's not, in regards to digital files and ebooks, is not clear and obvious (or we wouldn't have so much debate about it), and what you mean by "copying" is also not clear. AFAIK, it's legal for me to copy a book I own for my personal use. I've chopped, scanned & OCR'd several print books that I own. Distributing the copy is not legal, although the legality of sharing--if I have a way to remove my copy at the same time--is untested. At least one serious category is missing--books that would be in the public domain, if PD hadn't been retroactively extended. I feel no guilt for copying or sharing content that was published under laws that indicated it would be freely available for public use by now. (And I believe that those extensions haven't been directly challenged in court, which means that such copying may-or-may-not be illegal.)

02-19-2010, 10:42 AM	#30
Ben Thornton Guru Posts: 900 Karma: 779635 Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: UK Device: Kindle 3, iPad 2 (but not for e-books)	Rather than get into debates about what should be right and wrong, surely it is enough to know that laws change depending on where (and when) you live, to reject the idea that "if it is not legal to do something and you do it then it is wrong".