If only I lived in the US.

[TechBotBoy]

GhostHawk has the answer.

[orwell2k]

Originally Posted by GhostHawk

Go back to your wicked ways, just don't tell anyone.

If you find an author that you really like, and you've read a lot of his work for free, go buy his latest hardcover. He'll get the royaltys, and you'll feel better.

Doesn't have to be a black and white world, there are many many shades of gray.
You made the right choice when you started buying your books.
If the geographical restrictions push you back to the darknets, is that your fault or theirs?

Unfortunately, this advice is probably the best most people can hope for in the screwed up world of geo restrictions (the evil twin brother of DVD or BluRay region coding!) and publisher wars. It seems geo restrictions are going to take over from DRM as the number one gripe about eBooks - at least DRM can be removed if you wish to!

Unfortunately for them, their desire to fight it out amongst themselves is alienating just about every eBook reader and potential buyer out there. So many people want to do the right thing - pay money for a legal ebook - but they are simply not allowed to.

The only power the consumer has is to speak with their spending power. When deprived of even the option to spend, the only thing one can do is obtain the product through other "suppliers" (i.e. the darknet). We can call these people evil or bad, but they are not solely to blame - they want to buy the damned product!

The above suggestion at least puts some money into the author's (and the evil publisher's) pocket - if only there was a way to get it directly to the author and really punish the publisher!...

And BTW, I will never buy a Sony or Kindle reader, primarily because of their early policy of not selling outside the US (devices and ebooks) - I know it's a different issue to the current geo restrictions, but the principle is the same - a decent % of wannabe customers will not forget this treatment in the future - publishers, you have been warned...

[hallali]

I constantly read in this forum for about a year now. At first I was just interested in finding the right device for me (and still haven´t decided yet *sigh*). But more and more I became interested with all the other issues connected to ereaders.

The geographical restrictions really worry me. I plan to buy all my books, as I love books, really enjoy them and think that the authors and the people who make it possible for me to have them should have their fair share. But more and more I get the impression, they don´t want me to buy ebooks legally. It is just hilarious that I am able to buy the physical books (as I have done so quite frequently even from the US) and am not allowed to buy the book in just another form. And concerning DRM...but that is another topic. I think GhostHawk is right. Whose fault is it? I think it´s the publishers.

[TGS]

What's the difference between a "workaround" for obtaining books that the publisher places geographical restrictions on, and "stealing"? Seems to me that the difference is that if I use a "workaround" I think I'm justified in my action, but if I "steal" I concede that I'm not justified - but I do it anyway.

A legal definition of stealing is, "the wrongful or willful taking of money or property belonging to someone else with intent to deprive the owner of its use or benefit either temporarily or permanently". Now, given this definition it's hard to separate the two activities. Just what is being "stolen" if someone gets a copy of the book from darknet? Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating this, but the terms of the discussion - "stealing" bad - "workaround" good - seem to confuse the legal status of an act with some kind of personal moral response to an act. Obtaining goods by deception is no less illegal than stealing - though of course we may feel differently about the two sorts of act. I wonder to what extent, though, the way we feel about the two sorts of act is informed by our own interests.

Well, that's probably put the cat amongst the pigeons - as we say in England!

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by TGS

What's the difference between a "workaround" for obtaining books that the publisher places geographical restrictions on, and "stealing"? Seems to me that the difference is that if I use a "workaround" I think I'm justified in my action, but if I "steal" I concede that I'm not justified - but I do it anyway.

A legal definition of stealing is, "the wrongful or willful taking of money or property belonging to someone else with intent to deprive the owner of its use or benefit either temporarily or permanently". Now, given this definition it's hard to separate the two activities. Just what is being "stolen" if someone gets a copy of the book from darknet? Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating this, but the terms of the discussion - "stealing" bad - "workaround" good - seem to confuse the legal status of an act with some kind of personal moral response to an act. Obtaining goods by deception is no less illegal than stealing - though of course we may feel differently about the two sorts of act. I wonder to what extent, though, the way we feel about the two sorts of act is informed by our own interests.

Well, that's probably put the cat amongst the pigeons - as we say in England!

Well, you'll find different people have different opinions on what theft is. Most tend to focus only on the "letter of the law" but I don't necessarily.
I think if you "work-around" the geo-restrictions, in that if you set up a proxy etc in order to purchase the book and actually pay for it, that is not really theft in my book because you did pay for it. In a manner of speaking you might have "cheated" whomever (if anyone) has the right to distribute the ebook in your "home" area, but you haven't cheated the author.

[MrBlueSky]

[QUOTE=TGS;788756]What's the difference between a "workaround" for obtaining books that the publisher places geographical restrictions on, and "stealing"?

Its simple.

Uploading is copyright infringement, downloding is not.

[Crusader]

Originally Posted by TGS

What's the difference between a "workaround" for obtaining books that the publisher places geographical restrictions on, and "stealing"? Seems to me that the difference is that if I use a "workaround" I think I'm justified in my action, but if I "steal" I concede that I'm not justified - but I do it anyway.

In general a "workaround" is used to PURCHASE the ebook by stating that you are in country actually allowed by the geographic restrictions to buy the book. You PAY for the book so there's no theft. The only thing you are guilty of is bypassing the idiotic barriers the publishers have put up to prevent you from throwing money at them...

[kennyc]

[QUOTE=MrBlueSky;788767]

Originally Posted by TGS

What's the difference between a "workaround" for obtaining books that the publisher places geographical restrictions on, and "stealing"?

Its simple.

Uploading is copyright infringement, downloding is not.

Not quite that simple.

[Krystian Galaj]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Well, you'll find different people have different opinions on what theft is. Most tend to focus only on the "letter of the law" but I don't necessarily.
I think if you "work-around" the geo-restrictions, in that if you set up a proxy etc in order to purchase the book and actually pay for it, that is not really theft in my book because you did pay for it. In a manner of speaking you might have "cheated" whomever (if anyone) has the right to distribute the ebook in your "home" area, but you haven't cheated the author.

That depends on the details of author's licensing and agreement with various publishers.

As an example, let's imagine an author who licensed a book to be sold in UK for percent of the sales, and sold the rights to sell the book in US for a lump sum. Now, if you live in UK, but can't buy the book from UK publisher (maybe he doesn't have the store set up yet), and you elect to cheat and buy this book from US, you will pay the money, yet steal from the author.

[MrBlueSky]

[QUOTE=kennyc;788784]

Originally Posted by MrBlueSky

Not quite that simple.

Ha Ha. Déjà Vu?

[TGS]

Originally Posted by kennyc

... you'll find different people have different opinions on what theft is.

The point I was trying to make is that theft, like obtaining goods by deception, is not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of law. In law, both are illegal. Thus, someone who justifies "workarounds" - or, to put it in legal terms, obtaining goods by deception, cannot coherently condemn downloading stuff from darknet on the grounds that it is illegal since, when it suits their purpose they are willing to justify acting illegally. There may, of course, be other, moral grounds, for condemning downloading stuff from darknet, whilst advocating using "workarounds". There is a difference between legality and morality - sometimes the moral thing to do is to act illegally - though I'm not suggesting that that holds in this case.

[TGS]

Originally Posted by Crusader

In general a "workaround" is used to PURCHASE the ebook by stating that you are in country actually allowed by the geographic restrictions to buy the book. You PAY for the book so there's no theft. The only thing you are guilty of is bypassing the idiotic barriers the publishers have put up to prevent you from throwing money at them...

I am not suggesting that using a "workaround" IS theft, I'm suggesting that it is obtaining goods by deception. Both obtaining goods by deception and theft are illegal. Sometimes we can attempt to justify acting illegally, for example we are interested in "...bypassing the idiotic barriers the publishers have put up...". But if we do that we have to find another reason for condemning darknet piracy other than its illegality - since we have just argued that sometimes illegality doesn't necessarily make an act "wrong".

[tompe]

Originally Posted by markbond1007

Why is no-one loosing out? well so far everyone has been talking about books that just aren't available in their region, and that means that the book in question is not available to buy in that region ergo no one appears to be actually selling it!!! so no one is actually loosing out (assuming that you weren't going to buy the e-book in the first place).

If it will be available in a month people are loosing money. If the hardback is available but not the ebook people will be loosing money if you buy the ebook from another market instead of buying the hardback locally.

And since the paper book sale is still 90% it is still rational for the publishers to have the market split since it maximizes the income for authors and publishers.

[Ben Thornton]

I made a similar point on another thread that, ironically, getting around geo restrictions to buy a book is often seen as OK because it's making an effort to pay, while legally it may avoid paying VAT which the state may see as very much not OK. OTOH, with the darknet, the position is reversed, where many people see this as wrong, but the state is unlikely to be bothered at all.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Ben Thornton

I made a similar point on another thread that, ironically, getting around geo restrictions to buy a book is often seen as OK because it's making an effort to pay, while legally it may avoid paying VAT which the state may see as very much not OK.

I wonder if VAT is the reason for the rules about point of sales. If fictionwise sells you an ebook who is paying the VAT? If they have the right to sell it world wide is fictionwise adding VAT when you buy from Europe?